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10:14 pm
April 26, 2009
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kkamin
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I'm excited about your book, but it seems like the price point for poker books falls around $30. And e-books are even cheaper because of the lack of material costs. I'm sure the book will be great, but I don't understand how you can charge $100 for a book in a saturated poker book market.
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2:53 am
May 9, 2009
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BubbaSlick
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If you play 1-2 NLHE then that's half a buy in.
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4:48 am
May 9, 2009
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guest
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If you shortstack 1c/2c then that's 250 buy ins.
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9:25 am
May 9, 2009
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cptobv
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most poker books are wak. chances are this won't be. its aimed at serious players who can afford it. imo
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10:04 am
May 17, 2009
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Paul
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This is a question that comes to my mind as well… so far 3 reply's but not a real answer…
Is there a big difference between an e-book and a paper book (except that it's digital)? I figure that there is, hence the price, but what is it then?
Thanks
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4:01 pm
May 18, 2009
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cyberprime
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There are coaches on Stox or Cardrunners who have sold their ebooks for at least $1835 as far as I know.
I don't agree with that at all- just giving you the reference point that Ed is coming from subtilting the book 'affordable'.
Frankly, I think anyone who would pay that amount has too much money and should be mugged… constantly.
I can't argue with trying to get what the market will pay, but I think that in Ed's case he has a reputation as a mainstream poker writer that he doesn't want to jeopardize and quite probably the authors are honestly trying to keep it affordable for most people.
I think the ebook subtile is aimed somewhat playfully towards Stox members. Given that 'affordable' is relative, I certainly understand that those not in the Stox box (I'm not in it) could find it somewhat offensive given the financial times.
I personnally have no problem with the $39 pre-order (wish it was less though). I don't hate the $100 regular price but, I'm still not fully behind it either way.
cy
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2:17 pm
May 31, 2009
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pokerstudent
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I believe there are disadvantages to publishing an e-book from a business standpoint.
The moment they send out the first copy of this book, pirating this book becomes a problem. Unfortunately, it is important that they get the money that they deserve from those honest individuals that will be paying for a copy. If everyone bought a copy instead of trying to get a discount, they could probably charge less. But what they are charging is completely realistic for SERIOUS PLAYERS. And just like self-employed individuals will spend good money on tools, a fax machine, or whatever is required, they do so. As a result, their income grows.
if you want your income to grow in 1/2 NL 6-max, buy the e-book. But if your looking for a light poker read, get a less expensive, less quality book. I don't know about you guys, but I'm still pi**sed that I have a 'poker' book by Hellmuth on my shelf collecting dust that has an elephant, eagle and mouse in it.
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4:16 pm
May 31, 2009
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cyberprime
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pokerstudent said:
if you want your income to grow in 1/2 NL 6-max, buy the e-book. But if your looking for a light poker read, get a less expensive, less quality book. I don't know about you guys, but I'm still pi**sed that I have a 'poker' book by Hellmuth on my shelf collecting dust that has an elephant, eagle and mouse in it.
So, the person who actually spent money to buy a Hellmuth book is now telling the rest of us to spend money on this e-book… Fantastic. j/k
Seriously, why are we even talking about a book to begin with? I love poker (paper) books, but can't someone break out of the 2+2 mould and write a poker manual rather than another book?
**
[btw got that Hellmuth book free when I bought a used game at Gamestop]
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10:46 am
June 2, 2009
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Anony Mouse
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Just wondering, is $40 so far out of the range of most poker books? I'm not going to shell out $100, but thankfully I don't have to. Even if the book sucks I can afford to part with $40.
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11:27 am
June 2, 2009
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BlueTrane
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I seriously believe that this book has zero chance of sucking. I can't wait to get into it (hopefully today). The fact that it is an ebook is very different from the experience of ripping open the package of a much anticipated book (HOC for example) but I'm excited to get my "hands on" this asap.
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2:04 am
June 4, 2009
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Jeremy
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hey guys, i was just thinking this very question, so i jumped online to see if it had been addressed. i'm pretty disappointed to see that the question was posted well over a month ago yet none of the authors have replied.
"Small Stakes No-Limit Hold’em is serious food for thought, so the authors have made themselves available on the forum to answer reader questions."
as far as i'm concerned, $100 for a book is ridiculous. perhaps i'm not running in the expensive poker eBook circles, but i do play online poker for a living and i AM interested. i read professional no limit hold 'em and thought it was great and i've been a big fan of ed miller's cardplayer column and his stoxpoker videos. that being said, i don't think that i've ever paid more than $25 for a poker book. i realize that this book SHOULD be really good, but not being able to pick it up and look at it, i have absolutely no idea. what i've seen posted has looked good, but it's only a small amount of material. again, i have nothing but respect for you guys, but this could be some dinky little thing that you whipped together over a few drunken weekends, as so many poker books are (or seem like, at least.)
if your goal is to appeal to a small, elite circle of the online poker world, chances are pretty good that you'll suceed as i don't think that many people will buy it after the discounted pre-order period (which unfortunately justifies $100 per copy from a money-making perspective.) it's just speculation on my part, but i don't see the book doing that well considering the price and the fact that we can't see what we're buying. not to mention that i have to read it on a computer. i spend ALL DAY staring at my computer screen. it's the last place that i want to be after i'm done grinding.
again, i really don't mean to be obnoxious, but my decision to buy the book hinges on seeing an author at least try to give us a satisfactory answer to this question. and since there's no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks that i'm paying $100 for a book that i can't even look at before i buy, that only gives us two weeks. i'd consider spending $40 on a good poker book that i could look at beforehand and then read while sitting in a nice big comfy chair, but i'm gonna need to at least see one of the authors make the effort to try and answer this question before i decide to buy. and the standard poker product response of "it will pay for itself in no time!" doesn't cut it. any product you buy should serve some function, make you happy, or save/make you money. you could just as easily charge $1000 instead of $100 with that justification. the bottom line is, a decent book costs ~$25.
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2:25 am
June 4, 2009
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Jeremy
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i was just looking over the site and wanted to mention two more things:
1. the table of contents looks pretty solid, but at the same time it kinda looks more like a series of decent cardplayer articles than it does a full book. and what does "and more" mean? 2 additional pages or 10 additional topics?
2. "Many e-books are short – fewer than 100 pages – and can leave you feeling ripped off. Small Stakes No-Limit Hold’em, on the other hand, is a full-length book." this is EXACTLY what i'm concerned about and this statement does absolutley nothing to make me feel any better. how long is the book? 102 pages? when i hear "full-length" book, i'm thinking 350-400 pages. something tells me that it's not quite that long.
again, i've had nothing but respect for you guys, but i can't fight this sneaking suspicion that you're trying to cash in on a niche market based on your reputations. can you tell me anything to convince me otherwise? because, i AM really interested. i'm also really suspicious.
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9:48 am
June 4, 2009
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Ed Miller
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Hi Jeremy,
Good several points you bring up. Regarding the pricing this is how I answered the same question on Stoxpoker and on NPA:
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10:06 am
June 4, 2009
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Ed Miller
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To answer your other two questions:
I have just updated the TOC on the "The Book" page. The old one was two months old and written before we made all the final decisions about what was in and what was out. This TOC is now final, so you can see what the "And More…" is.
As for book length, this book is roughly as long as my three other full-length books (considerably longer than Getting Started). Word count puts it at 89,000 words. I'm still putting the finishing touches on the layout, but right now it is 308 pages long. I haven't added a lot of whitespace/pictures like you might find in other poker books… if it were laid out in that style it would likely top 350 pages. I actually believe this might be the longest book I've written, but I would need to dig out the manuscripts and run word count on them to be sure of that.
Part 1 is approximately 17 pages.
Part 2 is approximately 180 pages.
Part 3 is approximately 33 pages.
Part 4 is approximately 66 pages.
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10:37 am
June 4, 2009
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Sunny Mehta
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Post edited 5:37 pm – June 4, 2009 by Sunny Mehta
Post edited 5:38 pm – June 4, 2009 by Sunny Mehta
Post edited 5:40 pm – June 4, 2009 by Sunny Mehta
My opinion on the “why is this book so much more expensive than most other poker books?” question is pretty simple. Comprehensive poker books are terribly underpriced. Note that I'm talking about serious technical manuals with intensive analysis that are usually in the 300-400 page range, e.g., SSHE, PNL, MOP, etc., and not “poker for dummies” or whatever.
Do you think the aforementioned serious poker books have more in common with, say, a college level non-fiction textbook, or a romance novel? So why should they be priced more like a romance novel than a textbook? Further, I'd argue that these books might be more valuable than even a textbook because 1) they are often more pedagogically complete (i.e., you usually have to read more than just one textbook on, say, Algebra to make a living in the field of mathematics) and 2) the cost-benefit is much greater for the reader (i.e., more money per time spent studying can usually be made in poker than it can in whatever said field a textbook is on).
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12:45 pm
June 4, 2009
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DafarginNuts
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Its absolutely absurd that anyone would even debate the $40 price tag considering who the authors are and their TREMENDOUS past successes in poker texts..
All Four past texts speak for themselves AAA.
So those who question the said price truly need the text to raise their comprehension, understanding and skill level.
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7:00 pm
June 4, 2009
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Mr Dubious
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Post edited 2:02 am – June 5, 2009 by Mr Dubious
Post edited 2:03 am – June 5, 2009 by Mr Dubious
The justifications that Sunny and Ed have expressed for their outrageous price is laughable.
Just because you think your thoughts and words are worth alot it doesn't make it so – the market will dictate your selling price.
I guarantee that this ebook will fail at the $100 price tag and you guys will have to backpedal and offer this book at a much lower price. I predict this will soon be available for less than $20. There is not even a mass market for $40 ebooks – especially one that is liimited to use on a PC.
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7:31 pm
June 4, 2009
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Hitman
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Mr Dubious said:
Post edited 7:02 pm – June 4, 2009 by Mr Dubious
Post edited 7:03 pm – June 4, 2009 by Mr Dubious
The justifications that Sunny and Ed have expressed for their outrageous price is laughable.
Just because you think your thoughts and words are worth alot it doesn't make it so – the market will dictate your selling price.
I guarantee that this ebook will fail at the $100 price tag and you guys will have to backpedal and offer this book at a much lower price. I predict this will soon be available for less than $20. There is not even a mass market for $40 ebooks – especially one that is liimited to use on a PC.
Thanks for sharing, Mason.
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7:42 pm
June 4, 2009
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Hitman
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I preordered, so I'm getting the book for $40. If I had missed the pre-order, I would have been pissed, but I would have ponied up the $100.
Why?
I trust in these authors to deliver the goods. Before the nay-sayers bash me for this, I should add that trust is not based on rhetoric in pre-launch speeches. It is based on the facts that 1) I believe (my opinion) their prior work, PNLHE V1, is the best book in print today regarding NLHE cash games, and 2) said book has been worth 5 figures to me easily.
If this ebook comes out and I'm sorely dissappointed, I will remember how much I've made in relation to the last book these authors put out, and smile while I don't ask for a refund. I will lay strong odds that won't happen.
All just my opinion.
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8:05 pm
June 4, 2009
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Mr Dubious
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Hitman said:
Mr Dubious said:
Post edited 7:02 pm – June 4, 2009 by Mr Dubious
Post edited 7:03 pm – June 4, 2009 by Mr Dubious
The justifications that Sunny and Ed have expressed for their outrageous price is laughable.
Just because you think your thoughts and words are worth alot it doesn't make it so – the market will dictate your selling price.
I guarantee that this ebook will fail at the $100 price tag and you guys will have to backpedal and offer this book at a much lower price. I predict this will soon be available for less than $20. There is not even a mass market for $40 ebooks – especially one that is liimited to use on a PC.
Thanks for sharing, Mason.
Haha. Not Mason. Just someone who is reasonable and doesn't buy the lame justifications of these 2 guys.
Sure, they'll sell a few copies of this ebook – but I'd wager that it'll number in the hundreds at most. Especially at the pricetag of $100. Absolutely absurd price for an ebook. The ego that these guys have to think that the mass market will clamour to buy their thoughts for $100 a pop is staggering.
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With respect to pricing… we’ve chosen this price because we think this is what the book is worth. Well, actually we think the book is worth significantly more than $100, but you can’t always expect people to pay exactly what you think something is worth.
Why do I think the book is worth $100? I think this book is going to be huge for a lot of people. I think a number of people who are barely beating 50NL are going to read this book and, as a direct result, start moving up to and through 200NL with a nice winrate along the way. The book will easily be worth $10k or more to them. Obviously I know a lot of people won’t get quite that much value from it… but it’s honestly hard for me to imagine someone in the target audience (serious players who play 400NL and below) NOT getting $100 of value from the book.
I’m really proud of this book. It is a reasonably comprehensive guide to winning lots of money at 200NL…. the reasonably comprehensive part being key. Everyone who isn’t yet winning lots of money at 200NL will see in one place, organized logically and carefully explained, what it takes to do so. I guarantee that in two years people will be emailing me saying that this book launched their pro no-limit careers. I’ve received probably fifty such stories regarding my first book Small Stakes Hold’em (including ones from Leatherass and Cottonseed who I think got their money’s worth from the book), and I think this book will be the same way.
Comparing it to currently available paper poker books isn’t really fair. Most paper poker books aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. The rest are, in my opinion, underpriced. I didn’t set the price on my previous books, but if I had, I’d have priced several of them higher than the price 2+2 set. Is Small Stakes Hold’em really only worth $25 when guys are reading it and some of them are then going on to win millions?
Anyway, in the end things are worth what people will pay for them. I think this is a fair price that lots of people will buy the book and feel like they got way more than their money’s worth. But I could easily be wrong. If we release the book and three people buy it, then we’ll no doubt put our tails between our legs and rethink the whole thing.