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1:17 am
June 5, 2009
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mart1
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Post edited 8:20 am – June 5, 2009 by mart1
If you look at science books, they cost at least twice as much. To the authors:
Will the book have any form of DRM/Will I be able to print it out? I think reading of the screen is a bit exhausting…
If there will be updates, will buyers be able to get them for free? Maybe someone spots a mistake, will buyers be emailed when its fixed an given a new copy?
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1:56 am
June 5, 2009
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Jeremy
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cool, thanks for the replies guys. i really appreciate it.
my biggest concern was that it all seemed rather gimmicky, particularly in the wake of the cts/slowhabit insanity. perhaps their book is worth the money too. i have no idea and i probably won't considering i don't play high stakes hu, couldn't afford the book, etc. to be honest, i have more faith in you guys in putting out a comprehensive poker book than i would them. but at the same time, the timing seemed rather convenient and the whole, "buy now and get 60% OFF THE COVER PRICE!!!!" thing made it seem more like an infomercial than a good deal. it seemed like you guys realized that it was the perfect time to cash in on the masses of low stakes online grinders, like myself. however, i still wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, so i checked the forum. what really concerned me was that the question had been posed but not answered. but considering how quickly you responded to me, i assume that it was just overlooked due to your busy schedules, etc.
the whole thing raises some interesting questions about how we value goods in these mass market times, but i digress…
alright, i'm convinced. sign me up. and forgive me for doubting. you guys DO make a substantial part of your income from swindling money from people! i just had to make sure that this one was on the level. :p
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2:40 am
June 5, 2009
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WhiteheatSYD
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I am unsure why everyone is complaining about the price. The current ebooks on the market are as follows.
The poker puzzle – Improva – 300 euros (80 pages)
Easy Game – Baluga – $949 (150 pages ish)
Let there be range – Slow Habit – $950 (80 pages)
All of these books are very good and selling well. So for some one that is willing to share so much knowledge in 300+ pages for $40. I play 200nl, so I am lucky enough to of been able to afford Let there be range. Which was awesome value.
If you are a micro stakes player, I would snap this up and be grateful. It is the cost of a couple of pizza put it into perspective guys/gals.
I am looking forward to this as Ed's, Sunny's and Matt's succes didn't happen by accident. They are proven winners, and that is who you need to model to succeed.
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3:39 am
June 5, 2009
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DafarginNuts
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Post edited 11:03 am – June 5, 2009 by DafarginNuts
WhiteheatSYD said:
I am unsure why everyone is complaining about the price. The current ebooks on the market are as follows.
The poker puzzle – Improva – 300 euros (80 pages)
Easy Game – Baluga – $949 (150 pages ish)
Let there be range – Slow Habit – $950 (80 pages)
All of these books are very good and selling well. So for some one that is willing to share so much knowledge in 300+ pages for $40. I play 200nl, so I am lucky enough to of been able to afford Let there be range. Which was awesome value.
If you are a micro stakes player, I would snap this up and be grateful. It is the cost of a couple of pizza put it into perspective guys/gals.
I am looking forward to this as Ed's, Sunny's and Matt's succes didn't happen by accident. They are proven winners, and that is who you need to model to succeed.
Obviously some people will just not ever understand. They`re just caught up in a number. I am going through some difficult times with my family but I guarantee you if I can come up with the money in the next 2 weeks I am purchasing this book and getting very involved in the study group when it commences.
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4:18 am
June 5, 2009
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DafarginNuts
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Hitman said:
Mr Dubious said:
Post edited 7:02 pm – June 4, 2009 by Mr Dubious
Post edited 7:03 pm – June 4, 2009 by Mr Dubious
The justifications that Sunny and Ed have expressed for their outrageous price is laughable.
Just because you think your thoughts and words are worth alot it doesn't make it so – the market will dictate your selling price.
I guarantee that this ebook will fail at the $100 price tag and you guys will have to backpedal and offer this book at a much lower price. I predict this will soon be available for less than $20. There is not even a mass market for $40 ebooks – especially one that is liimited to use on a PC.
Thanks for sharing, Mason.
In the past two weeks at 2+2, I posted the release of SSNLH and it got removed within hours of posting. A few days later someone else posted the release date and it too got removed. 2+2 really has a boner towards this text. In all my years at 2+2 I have never witnessed any text being banned from the site. What is utterly sad is this text will be a first class must have for all full and 6 max NL players. Many forum readers at 2+2 will miss a golden opportunity.
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9:44 am
June 5, 2009
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Hitman
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Post edited 4:47 pm – June 5, 2009 by Hitman
Mr Dubious said:
The ego that these guys have to think that the mass market will clamour to buy their thoughts for $100 a pop is staggering.
I didn't read that at all. What I understood Ed to be saying is they set the price according to what they thought it was worth. Then he said they actually think it's worth a lot more than $100, but they wanted to make a price that was still affordable for people, and if you are already playing 200 NL or wining at 50 or 100 NL and looking to move up, then the price is absolutely afordable. I don't think saying theiy think thei book is worth way more than $100 is ego. What are they supposed to say? This book isn't worth the epaper it's printed on? lol Again, given the quality of work these 3 put out last time, a little ego is justified imo.
I also understood Ed to be saying they did think it would sell just fine, but maybe it won't, they really don't know, aind if it does not then they'll be forced to rethink it. That's a far cry from your assessment of what they've said.
And sorry, I'm really not convinced you're not Mason. You sound like you have a major axe to grind against these authors, and THAT would be Mason 100%. If you ARE actually Mason, stop being a douchebag, you know the book will be good you're just pissed you're not publishing it AND not able to stop them from doing so.
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9:55 am
June 5, 2009
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Jeremy
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DafarginNuts said:
Post edited 4:03 am – June 5, 2009 by DafarginNuts
Obviously some people will just not ever understand. They`re just caught up in a number. I am going through some difficult times with my family but I guarantee you if I can come up with the money in the next 2 weeks I am purchasing this book and getting very involved in the study group when it commences.
if you can't scrape together forty bucks, then maybe you should spend a little less time on this forum acting holier-than-thou and a little more time focused on your game. i understand that the authors are awesome and i've been a big fan of ed's for the past year. but if you just blindly fork over cash without any skepticism, perhaps that's why you're going through financial difficulties.
the reason that people are skeptical is that paying large chunks of money for a book is ridiculous to most human beings. poker players, however, are freaks and generally don't have a good sense of money. thus, it's a perfect market of people to exploit. i wanted to be sure that they weren't just piecing together a group of cardplayer types essays that certainly wouldn't be worth $100, or even $40 for that matter (this is what fpps are for.)
i haven't paid $100 for a book since college and i still consider that to be a ripoff. however, college texts are often huge hardbacks with tons of information, and they don't sell like romance novels, so the cost can be justified. i wanted to be sure that the cost in this situation was justified. ironically, the fact that it's normal selling price is $100 and the pre-order price is $40 made me MORE skeptical that it wasn't even worth $20. so i asked and the authors' responses were more than satisfactory to me. thus, i ordered a copy.
even with all that said, it's still an interesting question just how much these books are worth. i'm getting the sense that you guys would say okay to just about any amount. that type of mentality is going to keep you at the bottom of the poker fish pond. once the information gets out in any way, it's going to lose value as it's disseminated through the poker community. but at the same time it will be extremely valuable to the players that are capable of using it effectively. again, it's a very interesting subject and some amount of skepticism is justified and necessary.
if you want to add something meaningful to this discussion then great. if you just want to swing from their nuts then, carry on.
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12:10 pm
June 5, 2009
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Sunny Mehta
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Post edited 7:18 pm – June 5, 2009 by Sunny Mehta
My first exposure to capitalism was probably back when I started getting into baseball cards as a kid. I'll never forget hearing the phrase "Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it." I don't even remember where I heard it lol.
Obviously we're introducing a different pricing model here. But we really believe in this book, and we really believe that the information is valuable enough to be worth much, MUCH more than 100 dollars. We are also trying to strike a balance between reaching a wider audience than an $1800 e-book would, as well as not alienating our readers, as well as standing by what we believe the book is worth.
The $40 preorder price falls right in line with that. It gives faithful fans the chance to get a heavy discount, and it rewards them for the willingness to buy the book before reading it or hearing reviews of it. It also gets the book out there, so to speak. It gets people talking about it, and it guarantees that many readers will at least give it a chance. If the book is as valuable as we hope, from there it will sell itself. Maybe I'm being naive, but I honestly don't think it's all that unfathomable that people will have no problem spending a hundred bucks on something that can possibly improve their bottom line by a good bit.
FWIW, preorder sales have been excellent, and we're really happy about that. Remember, we too were taking a pretty big risk by leaving a well established publishing house to venture out on our own and do everything ourselves. But we did it because we believe in the quality of our product, and we think that this distribution model offers bigger benefits in the long run to both our readers as well as ourselves. Seems like win-win to me. You're starting to see this kind of thing happen across all sorts of different fields – music, movies, journalism, etc – where the middle man is being cut out, and there is more direct communication between artist and audience.
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12:27 pm
June 5, 2009
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DafarginNuts
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Post edited 7:29 pm – June 5, 2009 by DafarginNuts
Jeremy said:
DafarginNuts said:
Post edited 4:03 am – June 5, 2009 by DafarginNuts
Obviously some people will just not ever understand. They`re just caught up in a number. I am going through some difficult times with my family but I guarantee you if I can come up with the money in the next 2 weeks I am purchasing this book and getting very involved in the study group when it commences.
if you can't scrape together forty bucks, then maybe you should spend a little less time on this forum acting holier-than-thou and a little more time focused on your game. i understand that the authors are awesome and i've been a big fan of ed's for the past year. but if you just blindly fork over cash without any skepticism, perhaps that's why you're going through financial difficulties.
the reason that people are skeptical is that paying large chunks of money for a book is ridiculous to most human beings. poker players, however, are freaks and generally don't have a good sense of money. thus, it's a perfect market of people to exploit. i wanted to be sure that they weren't just piecing together a group of cardplayer types essays that certainly wouldn't be worth $100, or even $40 for that matter (this is what fpps are for.)
i haven't paid $100 for a book since college and i still consider that to be a ripoff. however, college texts are often huge hardbacks with tons of information, and they don't sell like romance novels, so the cost can be justified. i wanted to be sure that the cost in this situation was justified. ironically, the fact that it's normal selling price is $100 and the pre-order price is $40 made me MORE skeptical that it wasn't even worth $20. so i asked and the authors' responses were more than satisfactory to me. thus, i ordered a copy.
even with all that said, it's still an interesting question just how much these books are worth. i'm getting the sense that you guys would say okay to just about any amount. that type of mentality is going to keep you at the bottom of the poker fish pond. once the information gets out in any way, it's going to lose value as it's disseminated through the poker community. but at the same time it will be extremely valuable to the players that are capable of using it effectively. again, it's a very interesting subject and some amount of skepticism is justified and necessary.
if you want to add something meaningful to this discussion then great. if you just want to swing from their nuts then, carry on.
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My whole judgement was based on the other books these authors released. They were exceptional by all standards.
Second I am a micro grinder and my priority is my family before a book in these economic times. I am not holier then thou by any means. You need to use some common sense and not assume . I will not reply to any remarks you make in the future.
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12:37 pm
June 5, 2009
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Sunny Mehta
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Also, let's make this a positive environment. Nothing wrong with being critical or expressing an opinion, but nothing wrong with showing each other respect either.
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1:20 pm
June 5, 2009
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Jeremy
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DafarginNuts said:
Post edited 12:29 pm – June 5, 2009 by DafarginNuts
My whole judgement was based on the other books these authors released. They were exceptional by all standards.
Second I am a micro grinder and my priority is my family before a book in these economic times. I am not holier then thou by any means. You need to use some common sense and not assume . I will not reply to any remarks you make in the future.
"So those who question the said price truly need the text to raise their comprehension, understanding and skill level."
this is clearly holier than thou. it's not an assumption. it's funny that you'd say this and then admit that you can't afford the book, because it's clear that you have a much greater need for the book than i do.
my apologies sunny. i only show disrespect to people who've shown it to me.
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1:53 pm
June 5, 2009
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Mason Sklansky
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Sunny Mehta said:
Post edited 12:18 pm – June 5, 2009 by Sunny Mehta
My first exposure to capitalism was probably back when I started getting into baseball cards as a kid. I'll never forget hearing the phrase "Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it." I don't even remember where I heard it lol.
Obviously we're introducing a different pricing model here. But we really believe in this book, and we really believe that the information is valuable enough to be worth much, MUCH more than 100 dollars. We are also trying to strike a balance between reaching a wider audience than an $1800 e-book would, as well as not alienating our readers, as well as standing by what we believe the book is worth.
The $40 preorder price falls right in line with that. It gives faithful fans the chance to get a heavy discount, and it rewards them for the willingness to buy the book before reading it or hearing reviews of it. It also gets the book out there, so to speak. It gets people talking about it, and it guarantees that many readers will at least give it a chance. If the book is as valuable as we hope, from there it will sell itself. Maybe I'm being naive, but I honestly don't think it's all that unfathomable that people will have no problem spending a hundred bucks on something that can possibly improve their bottom line by a good bit.
FWIW, preorder sales have been excellent, and we're really happy about that. Remember, we too were taking a pretty big risk by leaving a well established publishing house to venture out on our own and do everything ourselves. But we did it because we believe in the quality of our product, and we think that this distribution model offers bigger benefits in the long run to both our readers as well as ourselves. Seems like win-win to me. You're starting to see this kind of thing happen across all sorts of different fields – music, movies, journalism, etc – where the middle man is being cut out, and there is more direct communication between artist and audience.
I fail to see the win for the consumer.
You guys save cost on publishing and distribution while increasing the price from the usual ~$30 for a paperback poker book to a $100 for an ebook.
How does this benefit the consumer?
-Paying triple the previous price is good?
-Having to read it off of a computer screen is good?
-Having to print off a few hundred pages on 8×11 is good?
I see the win for you – but where is it for your readers?
In the other instances that you want to compare yourselves to there is a stark contrast. Price doesn't go up dramatically. It usually remains the same or drops because there's no middle man to pay.
I don't see how your pricing model is reflective of the rest of the world.
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6:02 pm
June 5, 2009
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Sunny Mehta
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Mason Sklansky said:
I see the win for you – but where is it for your readers?
Funny screenname. I don't wanna beat a dead horse about how I think good poker books are underpriced at current paperback costs, but you can reread my posts earlier in this thread about that.
The main victory for our readers is that this book offers information currently unavailable in any poker book of equal or lesser price. Period. Other benefits of closer communication between authors and readers include instant upgrades to later editions, steep discounts on future paper versions, entry into other incentives (e.g., perhaps a raffle for free poker coaching) and perhaps most importantly, discussing the book with the authors themselves. While Matt Flynn and I volunteered a lot of our own time to do that after PNL1, and Ed made himself available on his blog, so far as I know a reader can't engage in discussion with Dan Harrington.
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7:08 pm
June 5, 2009
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mason sklansky
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Sunny Mehta said:
Mason Sklansky said:
I see the win for you – but where is it for your readers?
Funny screenname. I don't wanna beat a dead horse about how I think good poker books are underpriced at current paperback costs, but you can reread my posts earlier in this thread about that.
The main victory for our readers is that this book offers information currently unavailable in any poker book of equal or lesser price. Period. Other benefits of closer communication between authors and readers include instant upgrades to later editions, steep discounts on future paper versions, entry into other incentives (e.g., perhaps a raffle for free poker coaching) and perhaps most importantly, discussing the book with the authors themselves. While Matt Flynn and I volunteered a lot of our own time to do that after PNL1, and Ed made himself available on his blog, so far as I know a reader can't engage in discussion with Dan Harrington.
I appreciate the quick and candid response.
Those points actually do sound like a good value. I really hope that there will be paper versions in the future as I really do prefer having something physical to hold, read, and reference.
I will be pre-ordering this ebook and hope to engage you guys in conversation.
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10:15 am
June 6, 2009
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Pellshook
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This thread is absurd.
The pre-order price is a ludicrously low, while the full price is so much lower than other poker e-books by far less respected writers, not to mention it is only 2 BI's for a 50NL player!! If you play 50NL and think spending 2 BI's on your poker education is a bad deal, then you have very, very serious problems with your approach to the game. 2 BIs is a bad 5 minutes at the poker table – it is utterly insignificant and no player should care about 2 BI's. For anyone playing higher than that, it is a no-brainer at between 1 and 1/4 of a BI. Duh.
Anyway, I just ordered. I really hope Matt and Sunny have taken the best bits of their 2+2 books and condensed them. And I hope Ed's writing has become a bit clearer since NLHTP. No disrespect at all Ed, I know you were working with La Sklanskey, but the book was a wee bit muddled. I am 100% confident that you learned from that over the years and that's why this e-book will be good. This is why I ordered so quickly – all the authors are great poker thinkers but have made mistakes in the past with their books. But since a few years have passed since those mistakes, hopefully they have leared from those experiences and this time totally nailed it. That really is what I expect.
Roll on the 16th!!
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6:32 pm
June 7, 2009
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Matt Flynn
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Post edited 1:58 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
Post edited 1:59 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
Post edited 2:01 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
Post edited 2:02 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
Post edited 2:03 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
Post edited 2:04 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
Post edited 2:14 am – June 8, 2009 by Matt Flynn
In the past two weeks at 2+2, I posted the release of SSNLH and it got removed within hours of posting. A few days later someone else posted the release date and it too got removed. 2+2 really has a boner towards this text. In all my years at 2+2 I have never witnessed any text being banned from the site. What is utterly sad is this text will be a first class must have for all full and 6 max NL players. Many forum readers at 2+2 will miss a golden opportunity.
Mason desperately wants this book to fail. He wants to believe no book can sell well without 2+2, so he is deleting threads about SSNL. Whatever. Small Stakes No-Limit: The book 2+2 is afraid of.
There are different ways to price a product. One is to compare to the competition and see how you stack up. This is how houses are priced. Another is whatever the market will bear. Medication pricing is an extreme example of this: while under patent the companies charge whatever they want and they still sell a bunch. Once generic'd you get some competition and the price drops dramatically. A third way is a hybrid, and that's what we are doing. We're offering a ton of stuff that is simply not on the market (caveat: I have no clue if Bobbo's or cts's or balugawhale's books cover this stuff). And, we're being very specific about the topic we cover. Also, you get more for your money:
1. You got a question, we'll answer it.
2. The ebook will work on most devices and all three major operating systems. You will not need multiple licenses to use it on multiple platforms.
3. If you buy an ebook, you will be able to buy a paper book super cheap once we get that out. (And that is just a matter of having the PDF file printed and distributed as the cover is already done and we have bought ISBN numbers.)
4. If an error or confusing sentence is found, it will get fixed immediately and a new version will become available free to all who have bought it. However, there will not be many of these because unlike 2+2 this book was professionally edited, and also each author went through it at least three times after it was done, which Mason refused to let me do with PNL1, insisting he would "take it from here."
5. It is longer than most 2+2 books. It is well over 10,000 words longer than PNL1, although it comes out a couple pages shorter because there are no card or table pictures and much less white space.
So, we priced it higher because we think it's worth it and people will buy it for that. We also think we will make the most overall money by pricing it the way we did. btw the authors were not in agreement on the full price, but all agreed on the intro price. I was the lowest full-pricer and came in at lower than the full price.
Also, I have no idea why anyone uses traditional publishers anymore, unless they can get bookstore shelf space and make tremendous use of it. But bookstores don't sell many poker books anymore, and cutting out the publisher and wholesalor quadruples the royalties. It's simple arithmetic.
Matt
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10:59 pm
June 7, 2009
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mart1
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great post matt, it made me buying that. One Last Question: Will it work on Iphone/Ipod Touch?
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2:34 am
June 8, 2009
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frank
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Post edited 9:34 am – June 8, 2009 by frank
Also, I have no idea why anyone uses traditional publishers anymore, unless they can get bookstore shelf space and make tremendous use of it. But bookstores don't sell many poker books anymore, and cutting out the publisher and wholesalor quadruples the royalties. It's simple arithmetic.
Matt
Dear Matt and co-authors
I sincerely hope this venture was/is worth your time and turns out making you lots of money. That way we can look forward to more quality books published by you
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7:24 am
June 8, 2009
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Richard
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Post edited 2:24 pm – June 8, 2009 by Richard
Post edited 2:25 pm – June 8, 2009 by Richard
Matt Flynn said:
3. If you buy an ebook, you will be able to buy a paper book super cheap once we get that out.
Is this confirmation that there will be a real physical copy of the book available? ( with in say 6-9 months… )
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9:41 am
June 8, 2009
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Matt Flynn
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Richard said:
Post edited 7:24 am – June 8, 2009 by Richard
Post edited 7:25 am – June 8, 2009 by Richard
Matt Flynn said:
3. If you buy an ebook, you will be able to buy a paper book super cheap once we get that out.
Is this confirmation that there will be a real physical copy of the book available? ( with in say 6-9 months… )
That is our intent. We're not guaranteeing anything but we're not aware of a roadblock right now.
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