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Disillusion

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8:13 am
September 16, 2009


Lorenzo

Guest

I've purchased this book and I like it very much…but…I don't think the game is so easily beatable as it looks like in this book. One time you make a bluff and are called by a calling station…another time you make a thin value bet only to discover that your opponent has slowplayed the nuts…a couple of number of statistics can't overcome the differences among all the players…and they are enormous. Perhaps I should just use the fit-or-fold strategy at the lower limits (0.05-0.10 or 0.10-0.25$) but an observant player will not give me any action…an advice from the audience of this site would be greatily appreciated.

Thanks

8:39 am
September 16, 2009


Dave

Guest

I agree with you 100% Lorenzo. The book is an excellent and entertaining read. I play .02/.04 and .05/.10. I was a break-even to slightly profitable player before reading the book. After reading the book, I tried implementing the strategies and saw my bankroll plunge. Now, I understand that variance plays a role in all of this, but I tend to agree with you that fit-or-fold works best at the lowest of limits. A couple things I have learned are that:

1) Bluffing at these low limits is extremely dangerous.

2) A huge shove by the villain means he's got the goods. Just lay down your pocket aces, or whatever you have.

3) Be patient. Simply wait for great hands and patiently wait to get paid off. Also remember that a great hand preflop can turn UGLY post flop. Learn to dump those powerhouse hands when the flop doesn't hit you one bit.

4) Limp more. With the boom in online poker and poker discussion forums, it seems like everyone these days wants to raise pre-flop. Let them. Simply call when you've got a pocket pair or suited connector and play fit-or fold on the flop. Only chase draws if you're confident that hand will win.

I realize most of this runs counter to what the authors have written but this has worked for me. I think it all boils down to only thinking one level ahead of your opponent. Learn the stratgies in the book but only apply them when needed.

Hope this helps!

9:11 am
September 16, 2009


Ratboy

Belgium

Member

posts 8

I play about the same limits and you're correct to state that just the stats won't do to see if a player can lay down his hand when he has a small pair,… I mostly play ABC-poker but try to adjust my betsize according to the stats of the player(s) in the hand. When you see a player lay down a hand on a big turnbet or call down with a small pair…, make a note of this and play according to that note. Try to reduce the multiple street bluffing against players you don't know that well. Theres a bigger chance they'll pay you off on good hands then on bluffs at this stakes so play according unless you have a reason not to.

I notice that a lot of players at the micro stakes (10max) have trouble adjusting so most players will keep playing the same move over and over even if you keep doing the same thing.

So if I have a good read on someone, I try to isolate him and play according to the read, if not I stick to abc as much as possible.

I would love to hear from others if they share the same opinion or can give some further advice

9:13 am
September 16, 2009


Lorenzo

Guest

Dave, I completely agree with you on the first three points…I'm now used to dump any big pocket pair if I meet any counterplay. An example…I raise preflop with KK, two callers, flop comes J92, I cbet and the first caller raises…with 100BB stacks I can't know if he is overplaying AJ or has hit his set…even if he's a complete idiot (calling a raise from an UTG player with AJ) he has at least 5 outs to improve. With just a few blinds invested, it's safer to give up the hand.

I'm not so convinced about the limping strategy…I limp with a middle pair (88 or 99) in early position…the CO, a LAG player, raises to 4 or 5 BB…what's now? I know he can have any two cards but I'm heads up, without initiative and with little implied odds…if he's making a positional raise, he'll give me a bet but not much more…and if I slowplay too much I risk to give him a chance to outdraw my set…But if I come out with a raise in the same situation, I risk to be floated (flop comes Q72, I cbet and he calls, turn is a T, with two overcards to my pocket pair I cannot continue firing and if I check-call the turn he can bluff me at pleasure on the river). 

In Italy we say that the cover looks too short…if I'm too aggressive I risk to give implied odds and I risk to be called anyway by calling stations…If I'm more cautious, I risk to be floated and stealed…

At higher levels the balance between the risks can be obtained with selective aggression…but at the lower stakes I'd give money to the calling stations.

I'm really frustrated by the calling stations…they take the money from the thinking players and give the money to the luck players that hit big hands against them…and they aren't always the same! Excuse me for my rash but today I've been busted twice by a calling station that called with a pocket pair on a flop with three overcards and hit his set on the turn! Cry

9:35 am
September 16, 2009


Ratboy

Belgium

Member

posts 8

I limp more then I should as well. I limp all the small and middle pairs sometimes up to 10-10, even J-J. If someone (re)raises preflop I look at their stack. If it's not at least 10 times the raise I give up. Then on the flop play hit of fold. If I hit the set I bet every street unless I have a good read he's very agressive and will try to bet me out of the hand (so I check) or for example the board shows 4 clubs on the turn and there are 3 players in the hand or there's a 10,J,Q,K on the board (fold).

I try not to play that much suited connectors because if you hit the flop, you mostly only have a draw and I find it very difficult to play them profitable.

9:39 am
September 16, 2009


mullethaiku

Member

posts 96

I think your problem may also come from the stakes you are playing. I have read PNL and I'm about 100 pages into SSNLHE. In my opinion, the strategies may work better in the .25/.50, .50/$1 and $1-$2 games (or higher)

I noticed when I played .10/.25 or lower, some of the strategies did not work as well without some tweaking. For one I don't think Sunny, Matt, or Ed wrote the books from a micro stakes perspective because honestly they probably haven't played much at those levels lately. But I think you can definitely use the strategies to kill those games. There are more weak players, but you just have to tweak your game to fit the level.

I've been playing .25/.50 and .50/$1 lately, and I noticed so far that most of the strategies work pretty well in those levels. I think starting at .25/.50 and up, the money gets a little more "real world" for the average oppenent. Meaning your selected aggression and bluffs may work a little better when your opponents could potentially lose $50-$100 stacks in a big hand. They seem to lay down more.

Ironically, at the really low micro stakes, it's often a tougher game!  Because you don't have that $$ leverage. (most players won't really sweat losing a $5 or$10 stack on a big hand, so they will call you down more) Also, some of the more sophisticated, subtle moves you try to pull off from the books, may not work as well or as often because your opponents may be oblivious to anything outside of their own cards. I've also noticed some micro players seem to not care because they stakes are so small to them, so they'll call everything and raise/re-raise randomly.

3:36 am
September 23, 2009


Pok Fu

Member

posts 4

As a long time nano-stakes loser, I'll add my 2¢

Great book, certainly 100% okay for NL50+as is. For the nanos, everything's in there, but there's some work to do, like sifting through the material to keep what works at nanos, and throw away what doesn't. I think it's a great book, btw.

"Games up to NL10 are easy to crush."

This sentence is true, but after sweating so much these stakes, I think I'm one among many that need a more developed sentence.

"Games up to NL10 are easy to crush UNLESS you do things that crush YOU."

There's not absolute best play in poker. What is correct in some situation is just the awfulest worst in some other context. What happens is that plays that are correct at higher stakes are just the worst thing to do at NL10 or less. The ebook gives all the clues to destroy these stakes, but unless you're careful about what you put in your game, it also gives all the clues to get absolutely destroyed.

Here's the core of nanos-strategy; I invented nothing, it's all out there, I just put it together my way; I believe that reading the same concepts in many different ways, written by different people, helps some people me for example), to digest the ideas.

Big hand, big pot. Small hand, small pot.

Burn it on the plastic of your monitor, tatoo it on your arm, whatever. It's really at the heart of every problem I have in anos, and it's the starting point of every solution.

Just one move: the Value Bet

There's just one move to know at nanos: value bet. The section in the ebook about thin river value bet is pure gold, and it's just like printing money. TPMK is a small hand, and pot control is mandatory (especially when OOP), but it's often worth a small river bet; and don't forget to insta muck if vilain raises. Vilains will call with all kind of shit, even just a high card, but at nanos they'll almost never raise without at least 2p or some monster they slowplayed.

All these river bets will add-up and make a very nice profit.

Anything below top 2p is a small hand after the flop

Yep, even pocket aces. And even a set on a board with a lot of draws should be played with caution when multiway and the turn realizes some draws. The more cards are out, the weaker a pair becomes.

Why do you lose ? Why do you win ?

Understanding why you make money is just as important as understanding why you're losing money. You can win because :

  1. you're on a heater; any card you need, you get it.
  2. or, you're playing well.
  3. or both.

Try to be honest about it, because heater is a bad teacher.

In poker, you must invest money to get back money. If you invest more than what goes your way, you're losing money. How do you lose money (excluding beats) ?

  1. you often put yourself in situation where you lose small/medium amount of money.
  2. you play correctly 99.5% of the time, but make some huge blunder like 1 hand in 300.
  3. both, or a combination of both.

You MUST analyze your play and understand what's wrong to correct it. Maybe you consistently overplay big aces while you completely missed the flop; maybe you c-bet indiscriminately and make a 2nd-barrel, because you're convinced you "big hands" gives you some right to the pot, at least more than this fish who made a pair on the flop with 92s.

Personnaly, I tend to overplay some hands, which leads me to tilt, which makes me lose even more money. Then, I must play several thousand hands to get it back, and so on. I have other leaks of course, but by far, this is what keeps me on the ground.

Put a lid on your ego and Adapt !

Maybe it's vilain's day, and though he's playing horribly, cards go HIS way, NOT YOUR way. There's nothing you can do albeit keeping on playing your best poker. Experience proved me that it's very difficult, and consistently being oudrawn by someone you despise tends to make you play YOUR WORST poker. It creates some kind of resonnance where you play exactly the worst possible moves against this donk.

This is a solid sign that you should stand up and stop playing poker for the moment.

Pay attention to the other players, and play what works against them (see the ebook for that, works great). Take a stand with a decent hand against a maniac, vb to death the calling station, play agressively the loose passive that will play fit or fold post-flop. I've tried it, it all works, but not everything works against everyone. So, adapt !

Formulaic poker will get you up to some point (16-tabling NL200 for exemple), but working on your understanding of the game and learning about you and how to put yourself consistently at peak efficiency, will make you a true winning player.

Don't bluff, don't balance, don't slowplay

Bluffing is EV- in the long term at the nanos. Period.

Balancing your game is necessary against observing people who will play several hundreds/thousand hands with you. Most nano-players forget almost everything that happened before the last couple of orbits. Play good hands strongly, play carefully small hands that you want to see a showdown with, but don't go overboard, and throw away small/mid-pairs when there's action and/or overcards.

Slowplay is evil; it's rampant in nanos; you know the drill: you want to trap the fish, not scare your prey, and a whole lot of bs like that. And then you see thousands of posts where hero got his set destroyed by rivered gutshots/flushes.

Here's my 2¢ about slowplay (curiously, it's in the ebook too):

  • only the strongest hands, the ones unaffraid of giving free cards, can bear a slowplay.
  • is the clear best way to extract some value from player(s) who have zip.
  • the board is so dry and scary that the smallest bet will make everyone insta-muck, and your only way to make some value is to bluff induce.

At nanos, so many players play some perverted reverse strategy that a pot bet often has better chances to get called than a smaller one. And you won't make money if there's no hand out there. So betting is usually the best play, especially against passive players; passive players call, they don't bet (unless they have the nuts).

wow, that was a big post; I hope it helps.

5:32 am
September 23, 2009


Matt Flynn

Admin

posts 115

Nice post Pok Fu! 

Other micro adaptations: if you find you cannot steal the blinds preflop, and if opponents are clueless, you can limp with low hands in your range (small pocket pairs, mid-level high-card hands, and in loose postflop games suited connectors) and raise with high hands (big pairs, AK,AQ and when right AJ, KQ).  The idea is to get more money in the pot when you have the best of it, and minimize the preflop cost when you are essentially drawing.  This is anathema in tougher games because you skew your range too obviously.

If you cannot steal the blinds, tighten up in later position.  Blind stealing (and the occasional postflop steal bet) are what make loose late-position play profitable. 

Bluffing is hard to do against calling stations.  Do way less bluffing, including no 4-bet bluffing, in nanos.

Try to think of everything as "they are doing X, so I will respond and exploit that by doing Y."  For example, "They get very suspicious when I raise preflop, bet flop, check turn, then bet river, and they call the flop with any hand that connects.  Therefore, they are going to call with a very wide range on the river, so I should value bet top pair and even second pair sometimes.  Now, how much should I bet?  Will they call a big bet almost as much as they will call a small one?  If so, make a big bet."

This type of thinking is how you adapt to any game.

As a second exercise, put opponents on a range of hands.  It's harder in micro because they play so many hands and do weird things.  But to start, ask "How likely is it that he has a big hand?"  And, "How likely is it that he has a big draw?"  If both are not likely, think value bet.  If both are likely, think fold or check unless you have a huge hand.

Matt

7:18 pm
December 30, 2009


Andy

Guest

Lorenzo said:

I've purchased this book and I like it very much…but…I don't think the game is so easily beatable as it looks like in this book. One time you make a bluff and are called by a calling station…another time you make a thin value bet only to discover that your opponent has slowplayed the nuts…a couple of number of statistics can't overcome the differences among all the players…and they are enormous. Perhaps I should just use the fit-or-fold strategy at the lower limits (0.05-0.10 or 0.10-0.25$) but an observant player will not give me any action…an advice from the audience of this site would be greatily appreciated.

Thanks


These methods do NOT work at micro limits. I have over 1,000,000 hands at various microlimits and a winrate of 7bb/100. The advice in the book is absolutely horrible for microstakes.

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