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Does SSNLHE discuss the theory behind stack sizes needed to call pf raises for set value?

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4:23 pm
September 18, 2010


Grits N Gravy

Guest

I have not yet read SSNLHE, but I did buy and read Professional NL Holdem VOL 1. I recall a discussion about how big your stack needs to be in order to call a pf raise looking to flop a set. I know the odds of actually flopping a set are roughly 8 to 1, but the authors mentioned that you actually need around 12 to 1 to be profitably calling pf raises looking to flop sets. I was looking forward to reading VOL 2 to find out what the logic and theory behind this number is, but since SSNLHE is not a direct sequel to the first, I'd like to know whether or not this concept is thoroughly explored and explained in SSNLHE.

Thanks!

10:30 am
September 19, 2010


Matt Flynn

Admin

posts 115

Not sure if it does.  If you are callin with a pocket pair purely for set vaue (you won't be stealing), then you need a minimum of 12 times the preflop call in expectation for when you hit a set or better and win the hand. 

9:49 pm
September 19, 2010


Grits N Gravy

Guest

Thank you for this reply. Ok, so 12X is the number, but I'd really like to know what the theory/math behind this number is? Where did 12X come from?

Thanks again for any help on this.

10:07 am
September 20, 2010


Matt Flynn

Admin

posts 115

You are 7.5-to-1 to flop a set or better.  Sometimes you will miss the flop but hit the turn, and occasionally you will flop a draw like an open-ended straight draw.  Sometimes that you hit the set you will get a lot of money in and lose, either to a bigger set or a flush or straight.  (If an opponent starts with an overpair to yours and you flop exactly a set, there is a roughly 9% chance he flops an overset.)  And sometimes you will win unimproved if you are not forced to fold.

There are some estimates that go into the 12-to-1 rule, so no one can give hard numbers.  But overall 12-14 is the reasonable range.  We encourage a little stealing which makes the 12 more palatable.

2:22 am
September 21, 2010


Grits N Gravy

Guest

Ok Matt, thanks for this additional information.

I appreciate it.

4:14 pm
December 1, 2010


loverboy603603

New Member

posts 1

If you had AA and you knew your opponent was set mining what stack-to-pot ratio would you have to have to 'go with the hand' or i.e. to make it so that you never have to fold postflop.  It turns out that it is actually less than 12. Let's do 100 trials of the hand.

Flop comes out, you bet full pot with your AA

Opponent will flop a set 11.7 times, he can't call a full pot bet here without a set as he isn't getting the right price so he folds 88.3 times. 

+88.3 pots

He's flopped a set 11.7 times but of that you will have flopped a better set 8.4% of those times which is 11.7% X 8.4%=  .98% of the time we flop set over set, in other words we will flop set over set about 1 time during our 100 trials and when we do, we win 90% of his stack (95% equity that we win – 5% equity that we lose = 90% of his stack).  Therefore 90% of .98 X 12 pots (his stack size) = 10.584 pots

+10.584 pots

 

He's flopped a set and is not set under set 10.7 times, we have 10% equity in these hands, so we will win 1.07 times by sucking out.  1.07 X 12 pots (his stack size) = 12.84 pots

+12.84 pots

 

We won 88.3 on the flop, we won 1 by set over set and we won one by sucking out which means that we won 90.35 times, so he won the other 9.65 times.  And we are going to just stack off for our entire stack each time.  9.65 X 12 = 115.8

-115.8 pots

 

If you total this up, we come out slightly down, about 4 pots.

 

So what is the exact number you need to break even in this scenario?

88.3+.882P +1.07P – 9.65P = 0

Where P is the stack-to-pot ratio

P = 11.47

 

Keep in mind that people won't play their underpairs perfectly, if they ever call a flop bet without a set then you will show a profit here.  And the overpair will never play it incorrectly, ever because he just plays the line bet-bet-bet-get it in. 

 

The implications are that you need at a minimum of 12 stack-to-pot ratio to break even playing the underpair and even then, theoretically, it is possible to show a small profit but in practice, you have absolutely no chance.

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