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3:05 am
October 15, 2010
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Pcc
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Hello everyone! I am a big fan of Professionnal no limit hold'em and looking foward to look into the unofficial sequel.
My game is live 1$-2$ NL (100bb max buy in) at the casino in Canada. People there are mostly of two types: either gamblers that will commit a lot of money with weak hands ; or, weak-tight players always raising the same small amount no matter what and folding to any agression. There is, of course, a few competent players in the midst.
First, I had accepted to risk the recommended 20 buy-ins (4 k) as my bankroll. I've been playing for a year once a month. But I am down 800$… and starting to reconsider seriously.
So I had 12 sessions in total. I just don't know what to do to maximize in my game. In my last session, I suffered heavy losses (or lost potential gains) because of both types of players.
This is how I lost my whole stack:
First, a very weak-tight player didn't take my all-in bet of 70$ when that amount was a bit less than the pot, after he raised 10$ on every street. I called with suited king, cut the nut flush on the river(the ace was on board), reraised all in his 10$ only to pick up the pot. Disappointing :(
Second, I get 45s on the bb and get a free check. The flop comes: 6 7 8 (rainbow)
UTG raises to 15$ everybody folds, I call.
The turn is the 8.
UTG raises to 15$ (again…), i raise all-in to 60$, he calls immediately, showing me 59 offsuit. He limped under-the-gun with that trash…and my stack was gone.
Moreover, I'd like to add that at least half of my losing sessions happened because of those badbeats. A silimar scenario occurred the session before that one: Get 35s, flop comes 4 6 7, eventually raises all in at the river and the guy shows me 5 8 offsuit…costing me my whole 255$…
The most monstrous bad beat of my poker life happened about a year ago: I get 33, flop 3 5 8 (rainbow) I raise to 25$ , some jerk shoves all in 200$, I go all in too, the guy shows J8 offsuit…
the turn is the 8, and the river too!
Lost my whole stack again.
In 12 sessions I had three NICE winning sessions. The rest are losing sessions: one almost breakeven (something like -10$), at least 5 sessions with horrible bad beats, and the other losing sessions are essentially bad plays from my part. Ex: Once I limped with K7 offsuit, caught Tens full of sevens, went all in and the guy had Tens full of jacks…silly me for playing that trash hand and good playing with JJ from my opponent.
The buttom line is: I need guidance and/or a reality check from you guys. Is it something that I do wrong? I would like to add that I've read a couple of books and that I don't consider myself an idiot at poker. I've been practicing a lot on pokerstars' playmoney tables, and I tame mediocre opposition easily (I'm up a million). Still, I always hit the worst bad beats when the money's real. So I don't know what to do. Maybe i am underestimating my opposition?
I eagerly await for your opinions.
Pcc
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10:13 am
October 19, 2010
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ChuckRoast
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I don't think you have much to worry about yet. The reason is because you have only lost 4 buyins–Variance at its best. You just have to weather the storm.
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1:41 pm
October 19, 2010
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reboot
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Maybe you should be a little less willing to get all your chips in with the dummy end of straights?
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9:37 pm
October 21, 2010
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Pcc
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reboot said:Maybe you should be a little less willing to get all your chips in with the dummy end of straights?
Ure right…it is a bad play most of the time. That's why we call it the sucker's end, indeed. The problem is, since these players are limping with very ugly hands, they would go crazy the same way with two pairs on such board. That's why it's so damn hard to put them on a range 
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9:49 pm
October 21, 2010
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Pcc
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ChuckRoast said:I don't think you have much to worry about yet. The reason is because you have only lost 4 buyins–Variance at its best. You just have to weather the storm.
I know…maybe I think i'm not playing with scare money, but I am, psychologically speaking. I'm having a hard time accepting such bankroll fluctuation. Thanks for the encouragement.
I thought maybe of buying short (around 50BB) and playing short-stack to reduce the fluctuation in absolute dollars. 20 buy-ins of 100$ is less pricy than 20 max buy-ins.
I wonder if the authors are still on the forum. I'd be glad to have a piece of advice from the experts. I'm getting tired of moving in with aces and having a dummy catch a runner-runner…(another bad beat I didnt talk about)
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7:59 am
October 26, 2010
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mullethaiku
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My 2 cents:
This seems to mainly be a case of bad beats/variance. Live games obviously offer far less hands than online. Your 12 sessions of live play probably equate to roughly the same number of hands as two long sessions online. So there can be much more variance given your total number of hands.
Assuming this is 9 handed game….play tighter. It seems you may be limping into too many multiway pots with marginal hands, catching a good flop, but then losing to some random better hand from another limper. There is usually no need to get too tricky or creative. Simply raise or 3 bet your strong hands preflop, and fold the rest.
Live game players at that level are notoriously loose passive or weak tight as you said. Make it simple:
Against Weak Tight opponents: Steal small pots often when they show weakness, and shut down when they show strength unless you have the nuts or close to it.
Against Loose Passive opponents (calling stations): Don't bluff too often because they will call frequently (although small bluffs in small pots in position are ok at times) Otherwise, simply wait for a good hand and value bet relentlessly.
You probably already know these strategies, but sometimes as you learn more complex play in poker, you forget that usually the best way to exploit a live game it solid TAG poker.
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4:36 pm
October 26, 2010
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Pcc
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I think you're right mullet. I may have gotten too tricky for no reason. It is true that as the months passed, my profits dropped down as I was reading more and more books, becoming -probably- more knowledgeable at poker. Maybe forgetting Sklansky's advice, don't play at level 2 or 3 when your opponents are probably at level 0 or 1. You got to be tight with idiots and make them pay for limping with weak hands. Sticking to solid, straightfoward TAG poker as you said.
This is exactly what I do in PS play money tables, and I'm up in the millions.
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9:00 am
October 27, 2010
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mullethaiku
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Agreed Pcc. The nice thing about poker is you generally only have to play one "level" above your competition to succeed. Save your tricky plays for tougher games online. SSNLHE is a book for tough online 6-max games, which is very different from the average live 9 handed cash game.
It always good to keep studying and reading to improve your game, but you just have to know when and when not to use it. That is the key.
I like to use the analogy of being a war general. Against lesser competition (low stakes live cash game), it can often be counterproductive to use my more complex weapons or strategies. Generally a straightforward TAG strategy will be enough to defeat them. Save your complex, tricky strategies for complex, tricky opponents.
For example, I play small stakes online 6-max games at Stars, and usually have to utilize all of my poker knowledge to succeed consistently. Yet at my home game that I host, with weaker players, I can usually win very easily every week with a simple tight aggressive style strategy wth very little stress or complexity. I play VERY differently than I do online.
The thing to always remember about live games is most of the players are their for entertainment (even the regulars to a degree) What I mean by that is they made a trip to the casino as a planned event, and they want to play and have fun in a social setting, not fold 85% of their starting hands. So you end up getting many loose limpers and calling stations playing way too many hands, which is why basic TAG poker is usually the best strategy to crush a small stakes live game.
In contrast, online play is not really an outing or social event (since you can play on the couch in your underwear), and you will be up against players who have played tens of thousands more hands than the average live game player, so generally the games are tougher, thus the need for more complex thinking to succeed.
Good luck!
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7:56 pm
October 28, 2010
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Pcc
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Yes, I'll keep my game simple now. We'll see where it leads me. Thanks for your feedback it was very appreciated.
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3:16 pm
October 29, 2010
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mullethaiku
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Also, try not to overcompensate..many situations you described in your original post are simply bad beats/variance. Nothing you can do about that, except maybe tighten up preflop to simply avoid tough spots postflop.
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11:40 pm
October 31, 2010
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Pcc
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I know I shouldn't make any assumptions on short term results, but last night I battled with them for 10 hours, using extremely straightfoward TAG poker, and when I got up from the table I had 522$. So I guess it is working. I had to fold things like AK when having top pair on the flop cuz I saw people cold-calling raises with 58 offsuit and getting two pair. I got bluffed out many, many times. But my time came eventually and I crushed them. And I don't see how I couldn't be a constant winner almost every night playing that way.
I owe you one big time mullet.
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8:29 am
November 1, 2010
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mullethaiku
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Glad to hear it Pcc. With that basic TAG style, you will likely lose many small pots as you said, but more than make up for it with a few big hands.
Big Pots for Big Hands. Small Pots for Small Hands. It sounds almost too simple, Ed Miller and many other good poker writers have said it over and over, but it is not used in practice as much as you would think, even with good players. If you can remember that concept in the live game, you should continue to crush it.
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6:54 pm
November 16, 2010
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MMA Team
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Pcc said:
Hello everyone! I am a big fan of Professionnal no limit hold'em and looking foward to look into the unofficial sequel.
My game is live 1$-2$ NL (100bb max buy in) at the casino in Canada. People there are mostly of two types: either gamblers that will commit a lot of money with weak hands ; or, weak-tight players always raising the same small amount no matter what and folding to any agression. There is, of course, a few competent players in the midst.
First, I had accepted to risk the recommended 20 buy-ins (4 k) as my bankroll. I've been playing for a year once a month. But I am down 800$… and starting to reconsider seriously.
So I had 12 sessions in total. I just don't know what to do to maximize in my game. In my last session, I suffered heavy losses (or lost potential gains) because of both types of players.
This is how I lost my whole stack:
First, a very weak-tight player didn't take my all-in bet of 70$ when that amount was a bit less than the pot, after he raised 10$ on every street. I called with suited king, cut the nut flush on the river(the ace was on board), reraised all in his 10$ only to pick up the pot. Disappointing :(
Second, I get 45s on the bb and get a free check. The flop comes: 6 7 8 (rainbow)
UTG raises to 15$ everybody folds, I call.
The turn is the 8.
UTG raises to 15$ (again…), i raise all-in to 60$, he calls immediately, showing me 59 offsuit. He limped under-the-gun with that trash…and my stack was gone.
Moreover, I'd like to add that at least half of my losing sessions happened because of those badbeats. A silimar scenario occurred the session before that one: Get 35s, flop comes 4 6 7, eventually raises all in at the river and the guy shows me 5 8 offsuit…costing me my whole 255$…
The most monstrous bad beat of my poker life happened about a year ago: I get 33, flop 3 5 8 (rainbow) I raise to 25$ , some jerk shoves all in 200$, I go all in too, the guy shows J8 offsuit…
the turn is the 8, and the river too!
Lost my whole stack again.
In 12 sessions I had three NICE winning sessions. The rest are losing sessions: one almost breakeven (something like -10$), at least 5 sessions with horrible bad beats, and the other losing sessions are essentially bad plays from my part. Ex: Once I limped with K7 offsuit, caught Tens full of sevens, went all in and the guy had Tens full of jacks…silly me for playing that trash hand and good playing with JJ from my opponent.
The buttom line is: I need guidance and/or a reality check from you guys. Is it something that I do wrong? I would like to add that I've read a couple of books and that I don't consider myself an idiot at poker. I've been practicing a lot on pokerstars' playmoney tables, and I tame mediocre opposition easily (I'm up a million). Still, I always hit the worst bad beats when the money's real. So I don't know what to do. Maybe i am underestimating my opposition?
I eagerly await for your opinions.
Pcc
Hi.
I also agree that ALL IN move is always risky, and with the stack size U had and the size of the pot U played there was no need to shove that hard. I recommend that U try to value bet your play a little more next time and if U get re-raised then try sometimes to fold (even the best hand)…. In the long run U make more safe money that way..
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