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1:57 pm
June 18, 2009
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PutMyRobeOnRITE
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Hi Ed, Matt and Sunny, the e-book is great, thank you. I will be studying it intensely and it is already paying dividends!
I've gone through most of the book but need to study it deeper so sorry if I missed these scenarios in the book.
I've also watched Ed's simple aggression part 2 on stox for some help with this but I still need help thinking here……
You raise 3x in cuttoff with 100 effective and the button flats, he is a good tag, and you go heads up on the flop
What is a good way to think/approach these situations, they seem infinitely tougher than having position, I see betting a bottom pair because we are looking to barrel perhaps and essentially we are bluffing/stealing if we get called on the flop, but the medium strength hands oop are trouble for me.
A9 on a K97 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
AJ on a KJ7 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
T9s on a J94 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
K9s on a T98 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
Hands like these, basically middle pair pair hands out of position when there is an overcard out there. Or a somewhat dangerous board where the turn can bring some scary cards if we are called.
-Thanks in advance for your response
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2:09 pm
June 18, 2009
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Pete
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Post edited 9:09 pm – June 18, 2009 by Pete
AJ on a KJ7 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
(Pete) I'm betting the flop and nearly all turns. There's quite a few gutshots that'll most likely call the flop bet (QT, AT, AQ) as well as weak Js and combo draws. So If we bet the flop, and he has none of it.. we'll drag it down. If he calls and we fire the turn.. quite a few of the hands mentioned will most likely fold to that bet as well.
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2:30 pm
June 18, 2009
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PutMyRobeOnRITE
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I like that Pete, I'm finding some good answers in the balancing your lines section lower down in the later pages of the e-book
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12:55 am
June 19, 2009
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Pete
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Post edited 7:55 am – June 19, 2009 by Pete
PutMyRobeOnRITE said:
T9s on a J94 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
Against one opponent, I'm firing a on the flop. My hand is weak and I'm not even sure if I want to hit 2 pair given the texture. If called, I'm firing again almost all turns. If I get raised, great.. I know that even if I hit my hand I'm probably a considerable dog. If I get called quickly, I would assume some type of draw (KQ,KT,JT,QJ, (although QJ might have raised the flop)). He could also have a small pp that is testing to see if you fire again (hoping you have AK,AQ) If I'm called there.. depending on my opponents fold to cbet and river aggression, I'd consider either firing 3 shell, check/fold or check/call.
Maybe this is a leak, but it's my standard thought process on this type of board
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12:02 pm
June 19, 2009
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Hitman
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Pete said:
Post edited 2:09 pm – June 18, 2009 by Pete
AJ on a KJ7 flop, c-bet or check and why, and if we get called turn thinking?
(Pete) I'm betting the flop and nearly all turns. There's quite a few gutshots that'll most likely call the flop bet (QT, AT, AQ) as well as weak Js and combo draws. So If we bet the flop, and he has none of it.. we'll drag it down. If he calls and we fire the turn.. quite a few of the hands mentioned will most likely fold to that bet as well.
It depends on the villain too. If he's aggro in position and has a high frequency of betting vs. missed c-bets, then I like the line of checking the turn and letting him bet. It avoids us getting semi-bluffed off our hand if he plans to semi-bluff raise, and it gets us value from his floats (a high frequency of betting in position vs. missed c-bets would indicate he probably likes to float). It also gets us value from worse made hands like JT or 99 that he's not planning to call another barrell with but might thin value bet himself if he thinks he's got the best hand or can move us off something like AJ, QQ, or TT because of the presense of the K.
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12:48 pm
June 19, 2009
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Pete
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Hitman said:
It depends on the villain too. If he's aggro in position and has a high frequency of betting vs. missed c-bets, then I like the line of checking the turn and letting him bet. It avoids us getting semi-bluffed off our hand if he plans to semi-bluff raise, and it gets us value from his floats (a high frequency of betting in position vs. missed c-bets would indicate he probably likes to float). It also gets us value from worse made hands like JT or 99 that he's not planning to call another barrell with but might thin value bet himself if he thinks he's got the best hand or can move us off something like AJ, QQ, or TT because of the presense of the K.
Against an aggro, I like this line. Let me ask you this.. if the villian fires again on the river, what rivers are you calling with and which are you folding with?
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12:50 pm
June 19, 2009
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cyberprime
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I agree that the flop should usually be bet.
With the K high boards: how many hands are there containing a K that a solid button is likely to just call a 3 bet with? Maybe a couple. I see many more that your middle pair dominates.
Also, everyone one 'knows' now that K high boards are the best for bluffing, so I wouldn't give much concern to your opponent calling your flop bet.
The turn on those boards I will continue betting a fair amount and sometimes check calling.
I also have no problem check folding the turn as default with second pair oop against a tough opponent (TAG with a strong range here) especially on the more draw heavy boards (calling staions I'm auto-betting every street till I can't find anymore chips in my stack).
If your opponent checks behind the turn, you can often get any value missed from their drawing hands back by check calling the river and picking off their busted draw bluffs.
Most players realize that folding a lot on the turn in these situations is exploitable by observant opponents. What fewer seem to understand well, is that betting and checking in these situations can be even more exploitable. It's a matter of balance and how your opponents play/
cp
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3:32 am
June 20, 2009
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tom12481
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You guys, dont you think chking certain flops vs a tag is better to keep his bluffs in his range.
On flops that are king high when you cbet there are alot of tags who will fold or unless you are behind, by chking he may chk behind and bluff turn, or bet the flop without the king as a steal.
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9:45 am
June 20, 2009
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Ed Miller
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Man, this is a super opponent-dependent situation. It depends on whether you think your opponent is more likely to get spewy with bluffs or pay off light, and if you think he'll get spewy with bluffs what line you think will be most likely to ellicit that.
And as you noted it also has a lot to do with how this type of hand fits into your overall strategy/range when you play these flops. Bottom line is that against nearly every TAG I'd bet sometimes and check sometimes.
Main mistake I see learning TAG players make with these hands is to check the flop with these hands and ONLY these hands. Like they'll bet top pair, they'll bet air, but they check when they flop like TT on AQ5 or JT on KJ7 and try to get to showdown. This is super exploitable as long as the checker doesn't plan to call three barrels. Checking the hand is ok, but it has to work into your overall strategy. You have to be checking with the intention of snapping off some bluffs.. and therefore you're also checking air sometimes and also sometimes checking hands big enough that you plan to call three barrels with.
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5:35 pm
June 20, 2009
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Pete
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This situation comes up so often, I've started to really pay attention to how opponents (regs) handle it and record it in my notes.
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9:07 am
June 21, 2009
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tom12481
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Pete, you said you play micros?
If so then you will not need to balance your lines like almost never, so vs a TAG at micros there is loads of value c/c these types of flops. The tags are so easy to play you almost always know where you!
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9:45 am
June 21, 2009
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Pete
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I play 200/400 FR.. so I wasn't sure if the lines I typically take on aggressive games would be the same advice for 25/50nl. I'm thinking that at the lower limits, when the checkraise comes on the flop, it's usually a big draw/2+ pair. In my games, I find it could be a variety of hands to represent the big draw/2+ pair hands.
I'm really working on my note taking with regs. I was getting a little lazy until reading the book. :)
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2:04 pm
June 21, 2009
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PutMyRobeOnRITE
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Pete, Cyber, Tom, Hitman, those are good posts and I'll be trying to incorporate your thinking into my game.
Ed thanks for helping me think in this spot…..
Ok…..I zoomed through about 6-7 stoxtrader vids to find these situations and I'll give some comments on how he handled these situations….These were all singly raise pots, no 3-bet scenarios
OOP with a pair and 2 overcards he bet he c-bet his pair because he didn't wan't to c/c in that spot.
Mainly when there was one overcard on board like AJ on a KJx boardhe'd c/c and depending on the villain and history, he even called 3 streets.
and against an aggressive villain he went into c/c mode to not get moved of his hand with 88 on a J9x flop….
so…basically what Ed said.
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