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11:01 am
October 7, 2009
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William Minnery
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Hello All,
This book will not teach you to crush any poker game. The book is overpriced. It is entertaining to read, however, and should be priced as such–more like $20. One of the authors claims he was a winning player over several hundred thousand hands, yet he has never posted any evidence of this. This brings me to the topic of this post:
I challenge anyone to post a screenshot of their performance over 100,000+ hands showing that their winrate and standard deviation strongly suggest they are a winning player.
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1:12 pm
October 7, 2009
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Anonymous
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8:50 am
October 8, 2009
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mullethaiku
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I have no idea what the authors stats are (I'm guessing they are successful players) but it really does not matter much to me. As far as poker literature goes, the best players do not neccesarily make the best books anyway. Don't believe me?
-Phil Hellmuth- 11 time WSOP bracelet winner, arguable the best NL tourney player in the world. Yet his poker books are almost universally regarded as being terrrible. (Read 'em & Reap is a decent book on tells, but it was essentially all written by Joe Navarro)
Daniel Negreanu- one of the top players in the world, WSOP player of the year, mulitple bracelets. His books are not very good IMO. (tons of filler)
-Mike Caro- not an extremely decorated poker player by any stretch, but wrote the definitive book on poker tells, and it considered one of the groundbreaking authors of early poker strategy
-David Sklansky- not really considered a top poker player (based on stats, titles) but is considered by most a top poker theorist and author.
-Jeff Hwang-don't know his stats in Omaha, and he has no bracelets in PLO, but his 2 Omaha books have helped my game tremendously. i would consider them the best Omaha books out there right now.
-Ed, Sunny, and Matt- not sure of their stats, but they wrote Professional NL VL. 1 which is a great book that really helped my transition from tourneys to cash games. Ed Miller also co wrote Small Stakes Hold'em and NL Theory and Practice, two of the best poker books you will ever find. That is all the evidence I needed to check out SSNLHE (which is one of the best NL books I have ever read)
Magic Johnson and Isaiah Thomas- great NBA players…..horrible NBA coaches.
Were Bill Parcels, Bill Bellicheck and Tony Dungee all hall of fame football players? No, but they can teach/coach as good as anyone in football.
Sure there are examples of "great poker player=great poker book" like Dan Harrington's tournament series or Gus Hansen's book, but the two do not neccesarily have to be correlated to that degree. (my guess is Phil Ivey would not a be a great author LOL)
-I could have a 25 BB/100 win rate over 5,000,000 hands (wishful thinking), but if I'm a shitty writer and can't communicate well to the reader, my poker book would suck. 
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9:55 am
October 8, 2009
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William Minnery
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Challenge still stands.
You can color it however you wish, but I'm still waiting to see the winning players out there with a 100,000+ sample size. I genuinely enjoy reading the author's books. They are entertaining and thought provoking. Entertainment in this case, however, is secondary to wanting to earn income. If the authors want to market themselves as excellent writers and teachers, that's fine. Their claims about earning money from playing poker, however, are questionable given that they make no attempt to substantiate their claims.
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10:41 am
October 8, 2009
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mullethaiku
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Fair enough William. But I'm fairly certain the authors are not going to post their exact win rates for you anyway. But does their exact win rate really matter if their books help YOUR game improve? The real question to ask is have their books made YOU a better poker player? Have they improved your game? If the answer is yes to either, then what is the problem?
SSNLHE has really helped my game and increased by bb/100 sustantially, but I have not played anywhere near 100,000 hands since reading it.
I've heard Sunny makes a good living playing online, and I'm guessing Matt and Ed have done the same, but also have other business dealings going on. But I don't really care either way for the details. Their previous books are tremendous in my opinion.
In fairness, have you heard of many poker player/authors posting their exact personal winnings for the public? Just curious…if so..feel free to share. Or as mentioned before, feel free to post yours first. 
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11:01 am
October 8, 2009
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William Minnery
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I have NOT heard of any poker players posting positive winrates, standard deviation and a 100,000+ sample size for public record. That is exactly the problem.
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11:03 am
October 8, 2009
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Sunny Mehta
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LOL. <3 troll posts.
Sir William,
I actually have posted a screenshot of a sample of hands i played. The sample was only ~30k hands, however, you (obviously being a man of great statistical knowledge) don't need to be told that for ANY sample size we can set up confidence intervals and find ranges, and that any data can be significant if it is out of range (the ranges will just be wider for smaller samples).
For privacy reasons, I don't publicly post my screenname (or screenshots of large dollar amounts). However, admittedly my privacy could probably be bought if the price were right. Unfortunately your bold "challenge" falls JUST a tad short of enticement. How about we bet on it? We each put up $100k, and if I prove that my "performance over 100,000+ hands showing winrate and standard deviation strongly suggest I am a winning player", i get the $200k. If not, you get it. We can even hire a panel of statistical experts to be a jury. And forget screenshots, i'll provide the actual database – hand histories and all.
Whaddya say, bud?!
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11:57 am
October 8, 2009
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William Minnery
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Post edited 7:13 pm – October 8, 2009 by William Minnery
Sunny,
$100,000 price tag for a 100,000+ hand sample over which you have a winrate greater than zero? Let me guess, you need that much to cover losses incurred over some other sample?
Point well taken. You may very well have a 100,000+ sample size with a winrate greater than zero. I am not paying you $100,000 for this information and I find it deplorable that you would even suggest I do so.
That said, I am still inviting others to accept my challenge.
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1:02 pm
October 8, 2009
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mullethaiku
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William Minnery said:
Post edited 11:58 am – October 8, 2009 by William Minnery
Sunny,
$100,000 price tag for a 100,000+ hand sample over which you have a winrate greater than zero? Let me guess, you need that much to cover losses incurred over some other sample?
Point well taken. You may very well have a 100,000+ sample size with a winrate greater than zero. I am not paying you $100,000 for this information and I find it deplorable that you would even suggest I do so.
That said, I am still inviting others to accept my challenge.
William are you tilting? My guess is you just finished a rough session or two and you are looking to take it out on somebody.
There is no get rich scheme in poker as you know.
Their books, like any good poker books, are thought provoking and open ended. NL poker theory/strategy is extremely complex in nature. Notice even in their sample hands from SSNLHE they don't give you the "answer" or tell you the outcome. They just offer advice and attempt to get you to think about a variety of plays, as opposed to just the standard cookie cutter ABC poker advice. They also mention that at times you will lose big hands and stacks, your bluffs will not work, and that the variance can be quite high. (even mentioning a 40 buy in downswing that they could have easily left out of the book!) You make it sound as if the book guaranteed you will be making millions after reading it. 
I think too many poker students/aspiring pros want a magic potion, or some groundbreaking gimmick that will allow them to crush games with minimal effort. As you know, poker does not work that way. For every move, there are coutermoves, and for every countermoves, there are counters to that, etc. etc.
Did you expect to pick up the book, read it, instantly improve you winrate to 15bb/100, quit your day job, and ride off into the sunset. If it were that easy, everyone could do it.
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1:26 pm
October 8, 2009
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William Minnery
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I did not expect "to pick up the book, read it, instantly improve my winrate to 15bb/100, quit my day job, and ride off into the sunset."
I also did not expect that one of the authors was THAT desperate for $100,000. Talk about easy money!
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2:04 pm
October 9, 2009
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Matt Flynn
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Hi all,
William first I appreciate you posting under your own name, assuming I didn't miss some literary or movie reference. This makes me think your comments are genuine and not a troll attempt.
Sunny was taking a shot at your $$. It isn't desperate, it's just business. Maybe you'll counter his $100K for $2K, and he gets free money.
Why not provide this since all the young internet coaches and pros do? Three letters: I. R. S. I have made more money playing cards than almost every $1-$2 online pro there is and have the rental properties and tax forms to prove it. I have paid a LOT of taxes. Yet if I get hard audited for bragging on an internet site, the process could easily cost me $20K even though I would win. Sunny is smart to put a price on that information. All the coaches and pros who publish their info are begging for an audit. It is a major negative freerolll.
Sorry but it is what it is.
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12:27 pm
October 13, 2009
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Hitman
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Sunny wasn't suggesting you pay him for the hand histories… he was suggesting you wager with him that he can not provide it. Since you are so sure it doesn't exist, you should have been JUMPING at the chance to make this wager. Either that, or you're FOS. I know I have my read on that.
On the other side of that coin, Sunny seemed pretty confident he would emerge victorious on the wager. No funny business either, he's suggesting a panel of statistical experts to review the numbers and actual hand histories being provided which could obviously be audited to verify the stats.
IDK I think Sunny's bluffing William, escrow the 100K immediately imo. LOL
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