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1:55 pm
August 19, 2009
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Scott
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I'm having a problem at the micro stakes tables. I do okay for awhile, consistently making small amounts of money over many hands only to lose it all in one big hand. Usually I end up getting stacked with an overpair to a straight or 2 pair. If I raise alot pre-flop with a strong hand to gain a low SPR, everyone folds and I simply collect the blinds. If I limp, or min-raise someone inevitably beats me. In short, Im getting outplayed post-flop on these big hands and it's costing me everything I've earned on the numerous other hands. How do I learn to get away from high pocket pairs when the betting gets aggressive post flop?
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2:42 pm
August 19, 2009
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WheresNemo
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First what are you playing… .01/.02??? Limping an min raising pre-flop with a strong starting hand is just plain bad at that level. I'm not saying go overboard with the preflop raises either. Anywhere from .06 to .10 to open will work and will get you at least a caller or two. From there just watch the texture of the flop and know the tendencies of your opponents, what position you are in, and what position they are in. Even at .01/.02 with most opponents you can put a range on what hands they have in relation to their position and what they will call preflop.
For those that will call anything pre-flop with any two more times than not they will play fit or fold poker post flop. If they hang around more than likely they are on a draw so be weary if a possible draw completes on further streets. Also if these players start playing back at you they usually have caught something. Get to a showdown with them as cheaply as possible so you can see the kinds of hands that they are playing back at you with.
Most importantly don't marry a hand. An over pair is just a pair, Top Pair Top Kicker is still just a pair. Big hands big pots, small hands small pots. If you've got AA-KK sometimes QQ (opponent dependent) and occasionally JJ (once again opponent dependent) Pre-flop you want to get as much money in the pot as you can while you're ahead. Post flop, unless you hit a set or have a good draw it's better to proceed a little more cautiously. I'm not saying to play like a Timid Timmy either, just remember all you have is a pair. Just don't over play your hand.
Hopefully that'll help some for now…
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All the losers go home complaining about the terrible play of the winners.
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3:00 pm
August 19, 2009
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Scott
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Yeah, I think the part about not marrying a hand is what I need to learn. I think I'm trying to apply some of the advanced concepts of the book at the wrong limits. I play .01/.02 and sometimes .02/.04 limits. The problem I have with a .06 to .10 raise in .01/.02 is that it yields SPR's above the 4-5 that I would prefer with a high pocket pair. On the other hand if I raise too much, I tend to get no callers. I think I agree with you that when people play back at you at these lower limits they probably have something better than an overpair, probably even better than 2 pair. Of course playing on the Cake network poses another problem in that they don't allow HUD's or opponent profiling. :(
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3:03 am
August 20, 2009
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Rocketfingers
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I also play on cake and playing without the HUD taught me a lot of things. If I see a big pot or an unusual play I always open up the last hand history and look for styles and patterns to categorize my opponents. I recommend you to do the same, its hard to play big pots readless. Watch out for nits and tight players they not gona stack off without a big hands (worse than TPTK). If somebody plays back at you think about his range, like he shoves the river does he do that with a hand worse than mine, if yes what percentage he can have a worse hand? Another good tip is if you get a big hand pre-flop decide againt X opponent how big the pot you want to be at the river, if Opp is fish it can be an all1 pot, if he is a nit medium to small pot you want, so if the thing gets out of whack you know it's time to find the fold button. Don't rely too much on SPR, it's not your first concern pre-flop, raise 3,5BB or 4BB always.
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8:17 am
August 20, 2009
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Hitman
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WheresNemo said:
Most importantly don't marry a hand. An over pair is just a pair, Top Pair Top Kicker is still just a pair. Big hands big pots, small hands small pots.
^^^^This. When the spr is in double digits, don't auto-stack off with 1 pair. Review how deep the money is with the villain(s) and the SPR's, and make a commitment decision at each point. If the SPR is 15 and the flop comes 975, you're not committed to getting all in with your KK. When you're not committed, take actions to control the pot and get your hand to showdown. Actions that control the pot are checking, calling, and betting smaller. Actions that build the pot are betting bigger and raising. You're getting stacked up with your KK because you're doing things like potting it or raising post flop to "protect your hand" and "charge them" (sound familiar?). You're barrelling and raising and what happens is when your opponent has 1 pair beat, you're facilitating a big pot for them by taking actions that build the pot, and they're getting your stack. When they don't flop that strong, you're winning a small pot when they muck to your strong action. Which is exactly the results you describe, a series of small growth then a sudden stacking. The problem is that you're gettings stacked holding 1 pair, which is a holding that fares very well in small pots and pretty well in medium pots but not so well in big pots (on deep money).
The best thing you can do is get these authors first book, Professional NLHE Volume 1, and start learning about SPR, commitment and the commitment threshold, big pots vs small pots, etc. It will help a ton.
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8:21 am
August 20, 2009
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Hitman
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Scott said:
The problem I have with a .06 to .10 raise in .01/.02 is that it yields SPR's above the 4-5 that I would prefer with a high pocket pair. On the other hand if I raise too much, I tend to get no callers.
If you can't get the SPR down to 5, then play it with a higher SPR for a small pot. You can still get a lot of value from big pairs on deep money, you don't need the SPR to be low all the time so you can just get it in post flop comfortably. But you have to focus on playing them for a small pot first when the SPR is high (when you have a villain who it will be profitable to commit even with 1 pair on a high spr, you'll know it, but that should not be your norm). When the SPR is high and you're still blasting away with bigger bets and raises, you're essentially value-owning yourself vs. any type of non-retarded villains, because they're going to give you a small pot when you're good, and take your entire stack when you're not.
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9:28 am
August 20, 2009
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Scott
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9:17 am
August 25, 2009
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WheresNemo
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I'm going through the same thing right now…. It's about frustrating. All the money that I've made has been from winning hands without a showdown and all the money that I've lost have been at showdown… From looking at my stats and going over all my hands I'm getting in good roughly 70% of the time and the villian ends up outdrawing me the rest of the time I either don't hit my 10+ outer or I get in bad. I'll go through about 1k hands where I don't get outdrawn and then I'll go through about 2500 to 3k hands where I get outdrawn about 90% of the time… I'm not sure what to do anymore. I don't want to move up in stakes to try and avoid the really bad players who call with terrible odds on inside straights, <5 outers, etc. That's what you want right???? The higher in limits that I go the fewer the bad players. If I can't make money of off a level full of bad players I'm definitely not making any money higher up. What to do… What to do.
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All the losers go home complaining about the terrible play of the winners.
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2:18 am
August 26, 2009
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Rocketfingers
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I'll go through about 1k hands where I don't get outdrawn and then I'll go through about 2500 to 3k hands where I get outdrawn about 90% of the time… I'm not sure what to do anymore. I don't want to move up in stakes to try and avoid the really bad players who call with terrible odds on inside straights, <5 outers, etc. That's what you want right???? The higher in limits that I go the fewer the bad players. If I can't make money of off a level full of bad players I'm definitely not making any money higher up. What to do… What to do.
First don't put too much emphasis in small sample sizes like 2000-3000 hands it's just too small to say anything. If you played 20'000 hands and you still mess up it can also be because bad beats but at that point you really should rethink your game.
Second if you are running bad tighten up play a 18/16 game and don't get too tricky, this controls variance a bit.
Third after a session wait 1 or 2 hours and look back your hands where you get all-in and not just like AK flopped TPTK stacked off standard next hand, because this is not standard against a nit, and against other players who don't stack off with lesss than TPTK.
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6:03 pm
September 5, 2009
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eamonn
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just stumbled on this site,,,interesting forum for small stakes players,,of which i'm not. i play anything from 50/1 to 5/10.
jsut thought i'd add my thoughts.
1. nobody makes a fortune in poker with 1 pair,,anybody with poker tracker/ holdem, check your stats for all hands profit,,ie 1 pair, 2 pair, straight etc,,,a single pair is a losing hand after 7 cards,almost always.
2. you make money in poker through aggression and aggression only,,,learning how and when to be agressive is the goose that laid the golden egg.
3. players are not any better at higher levels, really,,,a bit more savvy maybe, but not any better, some of you guys who play micro are actually far better than you think
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6:41 pm
September 5, 2009
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eamonn
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4. if you ony have a pair on the turn or river,,,,you check or fold,,,even if you started with aces(how to play aa kk qq….pot sized bet pre-flop—all-in flop whatever cards fall)unless you manage to get it all-in pre-flop,,which is manna from heaven.
5. "(From looking at my stats and going over all my hands I'm getting in good roughly 70% of the time and the villian ends up outdrawing me the rest of the time )!!"says wheres nemo…………………………………
nemo, your getting it in with the wrong hands,,,with aa kk qq jj ,ak,,,,it is impossible to lose 70 % of the time.
the original poster scot says"Im getting outplayed post-flop on these big hands and it's costing me everything I've earned"………………your not getting outplayed, your outplaying yourself…..a big hand, is not a pair of aces pre-flop,,,,a big hand is a full house/flush by the river,,a massive hand is full house/flush by the flop,,,if somebody is silly enough to call you,when you have aces pre-flop,,more fool them.
6. rocketfingers wrote "If I can't make money of off a level full of bad players I'm definitely not making any money higher up. What to do… What to do." ……………………………….. i make about 4,000 dollars a week playing poker,,,but i can't beat the micro limits,i can break even,,it's not about beating a limit and moving up,,,that's total nonsence,,it's about finding a niche where you can make money,,,whether it is cash games/mtt/sit and go,,,,one more thing rocket, if all these players are so bad at your level,,,why are you losing ?
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2:39 pm
September 7, 2009
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Rocketfingers
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6. rocketfingers wrote “If I can't make money of off a level full of bad players I'm definitely not making any money higher up. What to do… What to do.” ……………………………….. i make about 4,000 dollars a week playing poker,,,but i can't beat the micro limits,i can break even,,it's not about beating a limit and moving up,,,that's total nonsence,,it's about finding a niche where you can make money,,,whether it is cash games/mtt/sit and go,,,,one more thing rocket, if all these players are so bad at your level,,,why are you losing ?
Back off a bit bro and quote me where i said things like that! It will be very interesting because I never said!
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9:22 am
September 9, 2009
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pythoneer
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Problems with top pair getting into too big pots? Did you read the e-book? In the Barrelling Section, apply Principle #2, about the sledge-hammer.
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