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Raiser vs Caller

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1:42 pm
June 24, 2009


breathweapon

Member

posts 3

While reading the Ebook, I was surprised the Ebook was entirely written from the perspective of the raiser (or re-raiser) and never from the perspective of the caller. Granted, we are the raiser more often than we are the caller, but even the section on floating is about playing against the float instead of executing the float. I know seeing flops and defending the BB by calling has gone out of style at 6max, but shouldn't it be addressed?

12:01 pm
June 27, 2009


fishtastic

Member

posts 10

That isn't entirely true.  There are some hand examples where we call preflop.  The first hand in the value section is one such example.  There is another example where Hero calls with I think AT to keep a bad player in the BB in after a regular open in the CO.

They mention that VPIP will usually be within a few points of PFR, so I'm guessing there aren't many examples of preflop calling because we shouldn't be doing it much.

However, exactly when a preflop call can be appropriate or optimal is something that I'm interested in exploring further too, so I would love to hear others' input on this.

7:23 pm
June 27, 2009


Ed Miller

Admin

posts 112

You know it's funny, but I didn't even realize the heavy raiser-oriented bias until you pointed it out. But from my perspective it's the right bias to have for the book we've written… it is "Small Stakes" no-limit and it's #1 purpose (IMO) is to get people into a sufficiently aggressive mindset when they play.

But if/when we expand the book for an update, I'll definitely consider adding a section about playing as the preflop/flop caller.

10:07 pm
June 27, 2009


BT

i be on it all day

Member

posts 5

Regarding being the raiser instead of the caller, one thing that I have noticed in looking at my results so far is that when I 3-bet hands like AJ and KQ, I seem to be showing a higher profit than when I cold-call with these hands.  Do you think this is reasonable or is it possible I've just run well in those situations?  Admittedly my database is only about 200k hands right now. 

I do agree that SSNLHE players should focus on being the raiser because for one thing I think it's so much easier to play pots when you hold the betting lead.  This applies not just to open raising but 3-betting, too. For example, say CO raises.  I feel like I should be able to show some profit calling w/ AJ here if I'm on the button.  However, if I 3-bet and take the aggression, I can either make everyone fold and win the pot immediately, or I will often take a flop in position if they call (and belive me, SSNLHE players like to call!), which is not a bad result. 

It might not always be great to 3-bet these hands against someone who fights back with lots of 4-bets pre-flop, but for the type of opponents that are loose, more passive, and willing to call 3-bets OOP (i.e. those that inhabit small stakes games) it seems that taking the aggression in the hand pre-flop is extremely important to increasing a hand's profitability.  Do you guys agree with me here, or do I need to work on my post-flop game after cold-calling a pre-flop raise?

I hope this made some sense.  I am looking forward to interacting with this forum and discussing the book!  It has given me lots of interesting things to think about.  I do believe that was your point – to get players thinking in the right way to improve their game.  From what I can tell, the forum software is very easy to use and the web site layout is very fitting, so hopefully there will be lots of enjoyable discussions…

Great e-book by the way, Ed. I read through it once quickly in the first couple days. Now I plan to go back and analyze specific lines and strategies with the help of your work and my poker tracking software. But I digress.

3:09 am
June 29, 2009


breathweapon

Member

posts 3

The problem is regardless of whether or not Calling < Raising in terms of VPIP, the amount you stand to lose or win as the Caller is much higher than the amount you stand to lose as the Raiser. If you raise and continuation bet every hand on the button, it can be a profitable strategy, but if you call and fold every hand on the button, it's a losing strategy. Every time you raise or re-raise, you can win 1.5 to 4bb, but every time you call, you can either stack or get stacked.

So even tho' Raise vs Call is disproportionate in terms of VPIP, the Call portion of our VPIP is significantly more important, because it's where we stand to win or lose the most.

It's like teaching how to play the White pieces in Chess and not teaching how to play the Black pieces, if you know how to play the Black pieces, you better understand how to play the White pieces i.e. you've only taught 32 squares.

IMO, something like BobbFitos' 2nd Expert Hold'em DVD would be invaluable.

3:26 am
June 29, 2009


Sunny Mehta

Admin

posts 67

Post edited 10:27 am – June 29, 2009 by Sunny Mehta
Post edited 10:28 am – June 29, 2009 by Sunny Mehta


breathweapon said:

Every time you raise or re-raise, you can win 1.5 to 4bb, but every time you call, you can either stack or get stacked.


Can you be more specific about what you are referring to? Because, as stated, I disagree with a lot of your assumptions.

Are you just talking about calling preflop? If so, A) I don't understand why “every time you call, you can either stack or get stacked”, because B) calling is no different than any other situation – i.e. – you have steal equity and you have showdown equity. To boot, C) since you inherently have less immediate fold equity by calling, that's an indication right there why being the aggressor is usually better in games where players play too tightly. D) Because much of the discussions are about 6-handed play, great calling situations don't come up nearly as often as great aggressor situations. E) The few that do, I feel we mentioned fairly amply several times throughout the text. Things like flat calling with position, calling out of the blinds, calling to delay bluffs for later streets, when to flat call 3-bets, etc, are all covered.

Is there a specific situation you are envisioning or having trouble with that you feel we didn't cover?

7:31 am
June 30, 2009


breathweapon

Member

posts 3

Post edited 2:40 pm – June 30, 2009 by breathweapon


When you raise or when you re-raise, either the blinds or the raiser can fold their hand, but when you call the opponent will see a flop, will have equity and will have the initiative as well. Because calling has less advantages than raising or re-raising pre-flop, it has to have a greater risk vs reward or implied odds to compensate for the pre-flop disadvantages. If you can’t potentially stand to gain more by calling than by raising, then you can’t possibly justify calling with out those long odds of flopping a set vs an over pair etc. Basically, the book really lacks a section on when and where to call vs when and where to re-raise and/or fold. Calling, floating, bluff raising flops/turns and shoving rivers are important concepts that just aren’t covered in enough depth IMO. Compare your book to Easy Game, where the author spends a lot of time discussing calling and merging check/raise ranges in a 40 page booklet compared to your 300 page Ebook, and you’ll see how little you really wrote on the subject.

Edit: My quote in your post was an over simplification, the majority of the time you raise or re-raise (i.e steal) your opponent is going to fold. You essentially simplify poker into a single betting round by stealing, but when you call, you're either bluffing or showing down across three streets and the sizes of the bets are exponentially larger for every street.

Essentially more money is won or lost in called pots than they are in re-steals, unless you get into the 3bet vs 4bet vs shove stealing games or two big pre-flop hands run into each other, but those events are reasonably uncommon.

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