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**** Session 1 : Stealing Blinds (pg. 35 – 48)

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5:12 am
June 26, 2009


Greyzy

Germany

Member

posts 19

Hi guys,

here are a few thoughts regarding that part of the book:

1. I guess it has been said before, but the heading for that section should read "Stealing Blinds And Playing Position" instead of "Profiling Opponents Using Stats".

2. Before reading I was not aware how important blind stealing is for the winrate (footnote on pg. 47-48). That may also be due to my very loose homegame where it's almost never folded to the button. But online there are usually so many rocks/nutpeddlers/setminers that I am convinced that this is important even at the micro-level I usually play (just to relax, not to win any serious money like you folks…Laugh).

3. This may be splitting hairs, but on pg. 40 it is recommended  "you should make as large a raise as you think your opponent will still call". This is NOT stealing anymore, but rather a value bet for a steal that is yet to happen on later streets (but there are cards to come, so you don't know if you actually WILL be stealing). Nevertheless I agree with the advice!

4. Regarding the raise size I admit that I was under the impression that a small raise will make it easier and therefore more profitable to steal on the flop, because the pot is smaller and my cbet can be smaller, too. In total I will be risking less money and have a better reward-to-risk ratio. Well, that's what I thought before reading this part and then I made the following calculations that convinced me otherwise:

Suppose the SB folds, the BB calls and there's no rake! My cbet will always be slightly above half pot size and wins me the pot.

a) I raise to 2BB (pot 4.5 BB on the flop); I cbet 3 BB.

=> I risked 5BB and won 2.5BB (.5 from SB and 2 from BB)

b) I raise to 3BB (pot 6.5 BB on the flop); I cbet 4 BB.

=> I risked 7BB and won 3.5BB (.5 from SB and 3 from BB)

c) I raise to 4BB (pot 8.5 BB on the flop); I cbet 5 BB.

=> I risked 9BB and won 4.5BB (.5 from SB and 4 from BB)

To my astonishment I found that the reward-to-risk ratio is 0.5 in all 3 cases! Bloating the pot preflop obviously doesn't reduce my expectation.

How to use this knowledge? It allows me to control my "standard raise" (remember that you shouldn't change your raise size depending on your hand strength!) and the resulting pot size. If I play short stacked guys in the blinds and don't want to have a low SPR (stack-to-pot ratio => see Ed's book PNLH-V1 for details) then I can apply a small raise size and vice versa. But maybe some of you have even better ideas!Wink

Greyzy

2:38 am
June 27, 2009


orestto

Mexico

Member

posts 17

4. Regarding the raise size I admit that I was under the impression that a small raise will make it easier and therefore more profitable to steal on the flop, because the pot is smaller and my cbet can be smaller, too. In total I will be risking less money and have a better reward-to-risk ratio. 

Bloating the pot preflop obviously doesn't reduce my expectation.

Greyzy


Correct. If the blinds are going to play fit-or-fold post-flop, then bloating the pot will be clearly a better play. Your reward-to-risk ratio is the same, and he will be folding most flops, so you make more money the most money there is in the pot. Against this type of opponent, bloating the pot preflop actually increases your post-flop expectation.

If the blinds like to 3bet or play back at you post-flop, then your post-flop expectation isn't as high and so a smaller raise will minimize your exposure to their aggression. Also, smaller raises will make it profitable for you to continue with some hands you would've otherwise folded with a regular raise size, because of better implied odds.

To be honest, I wasn't aware how much blind stealing affected your winrate either. This is great news, because at the moment I only have a 30% steal attempt. So I can definitely up my winrate, which is great. Plus, I love playing pots in position, so I'll have more fun this way too.

11:00 am
June 27, 2009


Matt Flynn

Admin

posts 115

Post edited 6:11 pm – June 27, 2009 by Matt Flynn


Keep in mind we usually want to take down the pot preflop.  In usual game circumstances, that is the most profitable expectation (when we don't hold a premium hand).

If opponent calls often preflop and folds quite often postflop, you can increase overall profit by raising more preflop.

Critical point: The c-bet should be small.  Start at third-pot or half-pot.  Go lower if opponent will let you.

Regarding profit, c-bet size, and how big the preflop pot is: This is slightly trickier than it may seem at first glance.  Overall if a half-pot c-bet is truly profitable (meaning you expect to end the hand with more money than you started), then in general a bigger preflop pot = more profit.  Yes when you lose the half-pot c-bet you lose more, but overall profit rises.  For example:

Say you win with a half-pot c-bet 70% of the time.

Small pot:  Raise to 3bb, big blind calls.  Pot is 6.5  C-bet 3.25 and you net 0.7(6.5+3.25)=6.825  minus the 3.25 c-bet minus your 3bb preflop raise for 0.575bb expected profit.

Big pot: Raise to 4.5bb, big blind calls. Pot is 9.5. C-bet 4.75 and you net 0.7(9.5+4.75)=9.975 minus the flop c-bet 4.75 minus the initial raise 4.5 = 0.725 expected profit.

Key point: When c-bet the flop shows an OVERALL profit, raising more preflop against an opponent who calls preflop then plays fit-or-fold postflop usually increases profit.

Key point: Your opponent has to fold a lot for this to show an overall profit, so don't do this unless you're sure he (1) calls far more often than he raises preflop, and (2) folds a TON of hands postflop.

Minor point: You actually do a little better than the above number suggest, because sometimes when he calls or checkraises your c-bet, you will have a big hand.  You do not have to pay off his top-pair hands since he folds weaker pairs and plays draws passively.  So you know top pair isn't a big hand if he plays back.  When he flops a set and you flop top pair, you won't lose much.  When he flops top pair and you flop a set, he'll lose a lot.  This is Tommy Angelo's reciprocality concept.

Back to critical point: This only works when opponent folds a ton to smaller bets.  To give you an idea, take the same pots and use a third-pot c-bet size:

Small pot: 3bb raise then half-pot c-bet vs. opponent who folds 70% to a flop bet yields 0.575bb in immediate expectation.  3bb raise then third-pot c-bet IF he will still fold 70% of the time yields 0.9bb in immediate expectation.

Big pot: 4.5bb raise c-betting half-pot yields 0.725 immediate EV. With third-pot c-bet and same 70% folding by opponent it is 1.2bb in immediate EV.

Key point: It is really easy to make money against opponents who fold often to small c-bets.

Key point: Expectation goes up a good bit if the small blind is the caller, because the preflop pot has 0.5bb more in it.  BUT, for this to work the big blind must be tight.

Key point: This works awesomely against an out of position player who raises then calls 3-bets often but folds frequenlty on the flop.  The additional 1.5bb in blinds helps, plus the bloated preflop pot helps.  BUT it is even more important to have blinds that fold very often when the button three-bets.

Matt

12:38 pm
June 27, 2009


orestto

Mexico

Member

posts 17

Matt Flynn said:

Keep in mind we usually want to take down the pot preflop.  In usual game circumstances, that is the most profitable expectation (when we don't hold a premium hand).

Matt


Matt, wouldn't we sometimes like to play a pot against a weak player that's out of position with a marginal hand?

Say you have J9s, you're on the BTN, and you know the big blind likes to call with a wide range of hands, and he rarely 3-bets. He's not a fit-or-folder, but rather a passive calling station. Wouldn't we, to some extent, prefer that he call our preflop raise so that we can play a pot with him in position and extract a lot of value when we make a hand?

12:56 pm
June 27, 2009


RML604

Member

posts 28

I would think the difference in this scenario is we would want to raise smaller on the BTN.  If he's a passive calling station, we'll be able to make up for lost value on later streets, and we ourselves can fold to any aggression/a bad flop without risking more than necessary.

But I agree with you, I would think this would be someone who we would rather get to showdown against than steal from.  I'm interested to hear what Matt has to say.

2:39 pm
June 27, 2009


Matt Flynn

Admin

posts 115

Yes there are cases where you prefer to see a flop.  Playing versus a calling station for example.

However, the most common case in $1-$2 is best expectation comes from taking down the the pot preflop (when we do not hold a premium hand).

In other words, the average $1-$2 player plays reasonably well.

11:40 pm
June 27, 2009


orestto

Mexico

Member

posts 17

Heh, well I imagine that's true. I'm not at 200nl yet. Thanks, Matt.

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**** Session 1 : Stealing Blinds (pg. 35 – 48)

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